Christine Calvé

Judge
Written By Third Boxcar LLC

General Counsel of the Canadian Space Agency

00:59:39
 

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Show Notes

As part of our Space series, Christine Calvé, General Counsel of the Canadian Space Agency, joins the podcast to share her career journey from ballet to the law, the importance of mentorship to career success, and the value of taking on stretch opportunities.

 

Relevant episode links:

Christine Calvé - LinkedIn, The Unbearable Lightness of Being

 

About Christine Calvé:

Christine Calvé was appointed Executive Director and General Counsel of the Canadian Space Agency Legal Services Unit in 2018. Christine received her Civil Law License in 1995 from the University of Ottawa. She also studied European Law at Université Pierre Mendès -France and International Business at HEC-Montréal.

She was admitted to the Barreau du Québec in 1996 and has since practiced law at the Department of Justice Canada. She is currently General Counsel and Executive Director of Legal Services for the Canadian Space Agency, the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec and the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency.

She has occupied various positions during her career at the Department of Justice including litigation, advisory and managerial positions. She was first appointed Executive Director and General Counsel in 2008. Over the course of her career, Christine has contributed to a number of sensitive and important files for the Canadian government, mostly related to commercial law.

She has pleaded in front of Federal Courts and negotiated numerous agreements with the Government of Quebec. She assisted government in numerous high-profile files and while working on these files, Christine developed a large network of contacts and retained valuable relationships with several legal experts.

 

Transcript

Becoming A Lawyer

Welcome to the show, where we chronicle women's journeys to the bench, bar, and beyond, and seek to inspire the next generation of women lawyers and women law students. As part of our continuing series focused on space law, I am very pleased to have you on the show, Christine Calvé. She's the executive director and general counsel of the Canadian Space Agency, as well as a number of other different development agencies in Canada. Welcome, Christine.

Thank you so much. I'm very happy to be here.

Thank you so much for joining. I'm interested to hear about your path, how you came to the space agency and all the other hats that you wear in government. What originally got you interested in going to law school or becoming a lawyer, to begin with?

Maybe you'll be surprised by my answer. I studied in Canada. We have something a bit different in Quebec, in my region. We have CJEP and then we go to university. While I was doing CJEP, it's somewhere equivalent to college, I was in ballet. I used to be a ballet dancer for many years. That was what I wanted to do. I wanted to be a ballet dancer. All my time was devoted to dance. I danced more than 30 hours per week doing all sorts of things. When it was time to do the internship, I found an intern job in the US Dance Company. Because I'm Canadian and going to school in Canada, I needed to go through a medical exam and I failed.

My knees were not good and they told me, we wouldn't be delivering you your medical record, appropriate examination, whatever. That was it for me. The dance was over. I could have become a professor, but it was not an option for me. It was a very difficult time and I was reflecting, “What should I be doing?” I love to read and I love the theater, but I knew I was not a good actor or actress. I had theater lessons when I was younger and I wasn't very good. I said, “Why not law?” You have to understand that I come from a background where there's no lawyer. Nobody has been to university.

I was the first one trying to look at the legal profession. The only thing I knew was what we would see on TV. It was the education. I was attracted to that. I said, “I like to convince people through dance. I know how to express myself. I know I had to convince people. Let's go into law school.” You can imagine coming from a ballet background, trying to get accepted into law school was difficult. I got there and applied to a different university in Quebec. In Canada, we have two regimes. We have the common law and the civil law.

If you want to practice in my province of Quebec, you need to go through civil law. I applied and I was rejected from all of them except one. One of them invited me to an exam. The exam was the same exam that they performed in other provinces in Canada. I got an R mark. I guess it's similar to your LSAT. They accepted me into their university, and then other universities got the marks.

They share the marks, like the grades that those students get, and invite me for an interview. I said, “I'm not interested. You rejected me at the beginning. I'm going to Ottawa U.” That's how I ended up in law school. I went to the place that wanted me before they knew what my exam score was. I was very grateful, and I'm still grateful because if it wasn't for that exam, I wouldn't be a lawyer today.

That's amazing. I think that's something that you come across, whether you're changing your focus in practice or whether you're changing careers, people have a narrow view of what they want to see in a candidate. There's so much that translates from the skills that you have from doing something else like dance, like the discipline. All of that comes with practice is important for succeeding in law school and being a lawyer. A lot of people cannot see that. It was good that somebody gave me the opportunity to show that you could do that.

It was a lot of fun. The first year was difficult because you're working with your brain every day and not with your body. That was difficult but then the second and third years, I had amazing marks. Everything was good. I learned how to learn, and that was fascinating. I enjoyed law school. At one point, I even thought that I would become a professor of law because I liked it but then my path changed along the way, but yes.

Did you have an idea of what you wanted to do with your law degree or you thought that this would be interesting?

I knew I wanted to be a lawyer, like a litigator. That's what I was aiming for. That's what I knew from the TV shows. That's what they show. It's a fun drama. That's where I ended up. I started my career as a litigator, and I was lucky. I was looking forward to getting a job where my values would be integrated. I would have loved to work for a big law firm, but not coming from that background. It was maybe far from where I was comfortable. I turned to the government by choice. I turned to the Department of Justice. That's how I ended up a tax litigator at the Department of Justice in 1995.

You've had all these various roles at the Department of Justice.

What I was doing at the beginning of my career was what I taught law was. I realized that it could be so much different. There are so many things you can do with being a lawyer or with your law degree.

From tax litigator to a range of policy work and also the general counsel roles that you've had.

I worked there for about six years in tax litigation. I learned a lot of things about how to show myself in front of the court, how to clean my case, but also how to draft the brief, and. I am someone who loves to work with a team. I was always brought into a bigger case where there were a lot of lawyers involved. I would be the person mixing everybody together and making sure the links were done. For personal reasons, I had to find another job. I met my husband at the time. We were divorced now, but I met my husband in that environment. I said, “I won't be married to a man and work with the same person. I want to have my own.”

It's a little bit too much together all day.

That's what I'm trying to say. I decided that I would go another path and I ended up in a legal service unit within a department for the Department of Justice. I started working in business law for the Government of Canada, as an in-house counsel. That lasted almost up until today. The job I'm doing right now started at that time around 1999, 2000. It was very different. I'm not going to court anymore.

I have many different files. When you show up in the office in the morning at the time and even today, you don't know what you're going to do because they walk into your office and they have all those questions and they need the answer now. If it's not now, it's not far away. You have to work hard and to find the answers but that's how I went from litigation to in-house council within the government of Canada.

You recognize some of the things early on that would make you make a good fit too, like enjoying working in teams and getting different input from that, that is so much a part of what you're doing when you're in-house as well.

At the same time, the good thing for me was that I learned a lot of things, not just about the law, business, or commercial trends but a lot of things about how to handle a business, how the world works, and the government as well. Government, when you're a citizen, you look at it and it's complicated, but when you're within it, you need to know how it works. As a litigator, you don't learn that. You learn your case, you go to court. When you're within government, you learn how the authorities draft a bill. You learn all this, and this is amazing. You become a much better citizen, I find.

That's a good point. You're looking at the bigger picture of policy and law and where that particular agency fits in as well, but the whole process of making law. That's cool. I wonder, most of the in-house counsel that I've spoken with for the show has been in private companies or public companies, but not in the government role. You haven't done the other.

I hate to ask you the comparison thing, but the part that you mentioned is unique because you think about it from a company perspective, you want to understand the culture and the objectives of the company. In the government setting, you're looking at the continuum of how everything fits together, even with other branches of government that you're not involved in, but will impact whatever policy or goal your department has.

That's true. You're looking at the broader picture. When I started in this department, I was a junior lawyer, so you still have your file and then you go to your senior counsel or your general counsel and then they're the one who tells you, “Maybe you should speak with Treasury Board because this will have an impact.” At that time, you're aware that there are other things that you need to reach out to other colleagues within the justice but every department is its own business as well. They have their culture.

A deputy minister is what we call the head of an agency or head of the department here. If your deputy minister is risk-averse, it does have an impact on the entire agency. As a lawyer working in that organization, you need to be aware of these things. How he thinks, how this is going to influence the organization in which you are and the environment. Those departments are the one that deals with the development. We provide and we use that part of it too.

The government provides grants and contributions, which are loans without interest to businesses. You need to know in what environment you're working. Do we have a good relationship with this other country? Could this be seen as subsidized? You need to know the geopolitics behind it as well. Many things need to connect together. The more you get experience, the broader all this knowledge. All these things that you should know integrate into what you provide as advice to your client.

The more you get experience, the broader your knowledge becomes.

The client could be the deputy minister. It could be an agent that does recovery on a file. It could be many things. We could advise on the official language. In Canada, we have French and English. You probably heard my accent. My first language is French. We do provide advice on many different things and that's where I think it's similar to what an in-house counsel does in the real world.

As you said at the the Canadian government level that you're at and especially in the areas you're working, you have to think about the geopolitical part. You're dealing with other countries and their policies as well, not just internally yours.

It is not for me to decide. At the end of the day, as a lawyer, I provide advice. Some people make decisions. They pay for that but you want to provide the best advice. They have probably a better view, and a better understanding sometimes of the situation but being aware brings the right questions into your mind when you draft your advice.

The considerations that should be part of the decision-making process.

As we know, legal advice is only one aspect of the decision-making process.

It's one consideration among many. Yes, exactly. I thought it would be interesting that you had your current role in the space agency. At least one previous role seems to put you in a position where things are changing. Frameworks need to be put in place both from a management perspective and from we need to set a framework for this particular department or agency. Christine seems to get the call for those kinds of things.

I'm not afraid of change. Aside from that, I think the main quality that I have, and it's that I love working with people and love to get different perspectives on something. When you're trying to influence, build, or organize, you need to have a diversity of views. I love that.

You have to be curious about things. That's another thing and wanting to learn.

That's true for almost everything. I was reflecting on what is it to be a general counsel. One of the things that came to my mind. I said, “I think the main aspect of it is I should know that I don't know much.” That's where I'm in the best position because then I rely on those that know and I'm able to funnel the right information and the right advice. If you walk into a meeting thinking you know everything, there are a lot of things that you won't be listening to.

For me, it’s being very aware. There are things that I know, hopefully, but there are many things that I don't know. I'm aware but I don't have the answer. How do you get those answers? Who do you involve to find the best advice? I think that's important for me. Also walking in a room and having all those different views. You have an engineer, someone who works with data, someone who works in cybersecurity, and we're all trying to aim at the same place, trying to get the satellite up and do both with it.

Sometimes I feel like I'm the translator around the table because everybody has their own language and I'm trying to do my advice. I need to understand what this person is saying in their own language and the same thing with the others. Sometimes I feel like I'm translating from one specialty to the other and trying to reconnect the dots together. That's a part that I like as well.

That's so true. That's right. That's a commonality and a common skill that's necessary for general counsels no matter what and where you are, the role that you play.

Make sure also that when you have a problem, you're okay not to be the expert, and be able to delegate and work with your team again. Some people need to control everything. I don't think that serves the position well. I think you need to have a broad understanding, be able to see the strategic decision that needs to be taken, and then have the right people to do the legwork and provide what's a niche. You understand what I'm saying.

You need to have a broad understanding to be able to see the strategic decision that needs to be taken.

Yeah. You need the substantive experts to implement them. I was thinking when you were describing that, I was like, “There are some micro managers and those who are not and those who give a lot of power to their team to work in their particular purview.”

When I started as a manager, I was a legal person. I was providing legal advice, but still managing a team, I was micro-managing. I was the expert and I knew what I was doing. This is something you need to learn at one point. If you're interested in that job, this is something you need to learn. I'm grateful that I had people surrounding me and helping me do that. There are a lot of things we need to learn along the way. I was grateful that there were people there to support me in that transition at the time.

That's another good point. There's a difference between serving as an advisor and in-house counsel. Being the general counsel was a different role and you have to be able to release some of that by working on discrete parts of the problem and looking at the strategy overall.

I totally agree with you.

Mentorship

That is an adjustment. You said that people can help you with that along the way. What kind of mentors, sponsors, and assistance did you have in your career and how do you pay that forward?

Interestingly, at the beginning of my career, my boss was away and I was second in command. A deputy minister called me in his office. I had provided simple legal advice and he had questions so I walked into his office. He asked me a very straightforward question. I was able to answer very proudly. I was about to go. It was somebody else in the room, the chief of staff. That's how we call this person. The chief of staff said, “Christine, what would you do? Would you do this or would you do that?”

I looked at the person from my eight years of experience and I said, “This is not my job to say.” That person looked at me and said, “What are we paying you for? We're paying you to get your advice. We want your advice on this.” I was very not impressed with the question and with the situation I was in. I answered the question and I said, “This is not a legal question. Don't take my answer from justice. This is Christine speaking.” I was released and I left. I went back to that person and I said, “I was not very happy I had that discussion.” That person became my mentor.

That person challenged me in that meeting. I went and spoke with this person and I realized that there were things that they were looking for that I was not ready to provide. I was not in the right role and all that, but that person challenged me. We had a relationship that developed and along the way, she supported me in transition, but not just into transition, there were leadership programs, and she would say, “Christine, you should register.” She was supportive. Today, this person is still in my life, providing me insight and challenging me. Sometimes you're at the same place for a long time and you go with the flow and that person would challenge me along the way and that's been a job.

When you said that anecdote, I was thinking, “That's someone who wants to help you.” That's what I thought. I was like, “That's someone who’s like, ‘Next step, you know what is this.’” It's like the next step of growth.

That person has been a mentor since, but many other people make a difference in your life professionally and as a person. I think it comes at the right time because you need to be open. You need to be open. Sometimes you go and you're not open, you're shy. Not to say that I wasn't shy. It doesn't look like it. People think I'm very confident. It's something I have to work on every day when I go into my shower but yes, there are people around that you can reach or you can just watch. Leadership is also about watching others and trying to reflect on whether this is something that would genuinely be good for me. You need to be authentic in your leadership and you can learn from others. You can learn what to do and what not to do.

Yes, exactly right, both and observing or as you said, it might be effective for that person, but that's not authentic to me. Learning that too. That's a great example because sometimes people don't recognize that. A lot of newer attorneys or law students are like, “I need to get a mentor.” Who knows what that means? They look for some. They have one particular thing in mind. If they're not open, as you were, to that particular circumstance, then you may not recognize a moment of mentorship when it comes. Being open to seeing and thinking about what that could look like and how that shows up in different settings is part of it because then you'll be more open to it when you do see it.

I totally agree. To help the young lawyers, I know in the Department of Justice in Canada, we have a mentorship program where those who want to be mentors put their resume and how they can support you. The other one looks and says, “I think I would be a good fit.” You're learning both ways so I'm part of that program as well and I encourage young lawyers to go even if it's through something that is organized, and then you see the person. You have to be honest with yourself. You have to feel the link and the connection. If you don't have that link or that connection, it might be a waste of time. A trusting relationship needs to be built. You need to be as authentic as you would be not with your best friend, but with your best buddy at work.

Space Agency And Continued Learning

That's true. It's still worthwhile, like you said to engage in the more formal mentoring arrangements that are out there. Why not? That may not be the perfect match. Don't be discouraged and go out and you'll meet other people and maybe it'll be a better match but that doesn't mean don't try it if it's available to you. Why not? Maybe we can talk a little bit about the space agency and your role there, also maybe the role of continued learning in that setting because of your pursuit of the LL.M at Ole Miss as well. Tell me how the space agency came about and what things you do there.

I guess I was at the right place at the right moment. I was already a general counsel for an agency named Canada Economic Development for the regions of Quebec. They're the one who provides grants and contributions to industry and businesses in the province of Quebec in Canada. I've been with them since 1999, 2000. They were looking for someone to fill the position at the Canadian Space Agency which is located in the same city as the job that I have, which is an opportunity because in the federal government in the US, my perception is that most of the things seem to happen in Washington.

Yes, unless you have the local district like the US Attorney's Office and things like that, but that's correct.

In Canada, we have a similar thing. Everything happened in Ottawa, except for a couple of departments at the time. One of them is Canada Economic Development for the region of Quebec, which is in Montreal. The Canadian Space Agency is also located in Montreal. They were looking for a general counsel in Montreal. They reached out to me and they said, “Christine, we would like you to fill that position as well.” They added the task and the responsibilities and all that to the one I was already doing.

I was grateful but very nervous because I knew nothing about space law. I've been a commercial law lawyer for 30 years, but nothing in space until 2019. When they reached out and offered me the position, I said, “Okay, but how's the team? Is the team strong? Do they know no space law because I won't be able to support the space aspect of the job? I could help with official language and all the things that I know from my experience as a lawyer, but not on these items.”

They told me, “We have people over there that know what they're doing and you will be supported.” I said, “Okay, let's go.” That's how it started. Since then, it's been blooming. Can we say that in English? It's blooming. It's wonderful. The government has decided to do a bunch of things. They're looking at their legislation. They want to modernize their regulation and everything. I'm in there with my team and want to learn more. Every day, I'm learning more through my team.

Also, I'm doing an LL.M. at the University of Mississippi in space law just to make sure that even if I'm not the one providing the advice, I understand the broader context and I know what other countries are doing, what's around there, how can this help us and help me ask the right question to my team? I'm very grateful. I'm curious and that's fulfilling a lot of things. I'm about to retire. In about two years, I'll be eligible for retirement. At this point, I'm totally in and I'm not looking forward to that. I'm in my job and now I want to work for longer because it provides a lot of energy.

I was going to say it's exciting.

I do everything that has to do with what the Canadian Space Agency is doing. Whenever they have a problem or a policy direction, I'm part of the discussion. I turn to my team. I have a broad perspective. I have a team that is supporting me and I'm very grateful for that. If you were asking me, “What are you most grateful for,” I would tell you I'm grateful for the teamwork that I'm doing with my team.

I had the chance to choose most of them. Those that I have chosen are good. Most of my team, and I'm not just talking about the Canadian Space Agency but the other agencies as well. Instead of having a silos agency, because I have seven legal service units that I run, I don't run them as silos. We have a meeting all together and we share what we're doing. Someone with space law can jump in a file with other items because their perspective is good.

If you want to advance law, sometimes you need to know what others are thinking. Sometimes I feel that we need to understand better how everything works. I'm very grateful for that. To get back to the question, what I do is I support the agency and the president at this time. She's a lawyer herself. She’s awesome. She understands our value. She involves us in a lot of files. Not because there are a lot of legal issues or challenges, but because she sees the benefits of having us around the table. You feel the respect.

If you want to advance laws, sometimes, you need to know what others are thinking.

Exactly because she can see the value of that and the value of the training and the thinking even if it isn't a purely legal question. There are a lot of things that you can bring to the table as a lawyer with that training that can help in problem-solving. That's great to have someone who recognizes that and goes, “You would be valuable for this.” That's neat.

Not to say that the organization did not recognize that before, but having someone who has training that is similar can see how you can better support them. Even for me, in the beginning, I was shy of not being an expert and not knowing everything. Having someone who understood where I was coming from and was supportive of me, like deploying my wings into the organization.

That's good. That's always nice to have that as well. What an interesting time as a policy matter, Canada has decided we need to cover some things in our laws around space, which were not there previously. That's a neat time to be involved. I can understand why it's invigorating and exciting.

I'm sure you can see the little sparkles in my eyes. Hopefully, I know I have my glasses, but it does. We're talking about law, but in Canada, we have policy people. The policy team is great as well. They're the ones who look at what's being done around the world. We had a great discussion. It's a fantastic time to be at the Canadian Space Agency. That's for the legal aspect, but they're part of the gateway with NASA and the International Space Station. There are many things where you look at this and you say, “I'm very grateful for my job.” It wasn't planned. If you would ask me in 2015, I would say, “What? That's what happened?” It did and now I'm doing my master and I'm having all this information coming in. My team, I'm very grateful with.

The change and the constant learning of new things keep you engaged. I know it keeps me engaged in the practice of law. Doing appellate law as I do, in addition to the RLM program, each case is different, each topic is different. It's different in every case I get. It keeps you interested. If it were exactly very similar problems all the time, you might get a little tired. It's not the case.

There are a couple of things in the move to the space agency, First, you could have said, “I don't know anything about that. I'm not the right person.” You were like, “I don't know anything about that but if I had a team that had specialties in it already, I could do that.” I think that being open to it and saying, “Is there a way that could happen, even though I don't have this?”

Following up with that to say, “I will get some specialized training in this while I'm doing it. I'm learning while doing, but also adding to that another layer,” and being open to continually learning throughout your career. I think that is what allows you to remain invigorated, Christine, because you're reaching that as well. You're taking opportunities that are different.

Yes, and similarly to that, before joining, for a couple of years, they sent me on another mandate for more management. It was an immigration law. I had no clue, but that team was big. They had 65 lawyers. There were a lot of lawyers around in there, all experts. I was less afraid and knew what my mandate was. When I started at the Canadian Space Agency, it was very different. In immigration, I was doing, I was not a general counsel.

I was managing litigators, and so it was very different. Still, in the beginning, when I started the immigration thing, the immigration mandate, I would have lawyers come into my office and tell me like, “Immigration, this subject 101. Tell me what I need to know so when I read a brief, I know what I should be looking for.” In the end, I found that I was very effective in that immigration law mandate because I knew nothing.

You had an open mind to things. You didn't just say, “This is the way we do it.”

When you have no knowledge, you read something you don't understand. You don't understand. Please go back and write it the different ways so I understand because if I don't understand, a judge at the federal court might not understand as well. They're not all immigration experts. You need to write for the regular people. We say in Canada, plain language. I don't know if you use that expression.

We say plain English.

I was prepared when they reached out to me in 2019.

That's a good point too. I think that's some of the value. There are people in space law who've been in it a long time and carry all of that knowledge and experience with them, which is important to have. Some people are newer entrants to it, who bring different perspectives outside that. Especially when you're at a stage where things are changing or you need to make decisions about what approach you're going to take, it's good to have a whole range of views about things so you can consider all of the options and not be so focused on one.

I totally agree with you. As I said, this is mainly why I decided to register to make sure that I was not overlooking something, and that everything was taken into consideration because when you're an expert, while you know and you know this is the way you've been doing it for a long time. Sometimes I forget there are different ways. We know that there are interesting approaches from other countries in the world. It's interesting to look at them as well and see, “Is there anything in there that could support something useful for our country? If so, what is it and how can we integrate this?”

I think there's a lot of value to learning and thinking about things in different ways and saying, “That's an interesting idea. Maybe that's something we should investigate. We haven't thought about it. That's so true. It's an interesting time. I think that's a good example of your unexpected journey to space law, which is so funny. I was located in the area where they needed someone. That's a good story but being open to it and saying, “That's fine. As long as I have this, I’m willing to go with it.”

That's such a great lesson in so many other settings for people. Especially for women, it can be hard for us to do that because we have to check off all the boxes and know that we have all of the twelve skills required before we apply for something or do something. It's great to have that confidence where you're like, “I can do that. If I have the following things then I can do that.” It's such a great message all around.

That's because of my mentor who supported me. If I had not had my mentor at the time, I would have turned them down. I would have said, “I'm not an expert. I don't know anything about that.” I'm not providing advice on things that I don't know. We have a legal profession. The bar is looking at what we're doing, and I have my ethical ways of doing things, my deontology, and all that. Why not try something? I feel that as women, we are our worst enemy sometimes. We look at ourselves and we lack confidence. I'm making a gross generalization here, I'm sorry. I look at myself and sometimes I feel that I treat not my friends but my enemy better than I treat myself sometimes. We're being very hard on ourselves.

We are our worst enemy. Sometimes, we look at ourselves and lack confidence.

Very tough.

I feel that we should treat ourselves the way that we would treat our best friend. Providing very good advice, and being thoughtful about what we're saying to support. Every day when I wake up, I take a shower every morning. While I'm in the shower, it always goes into my mind what I'm going to do and all these things like what is my day today? I look at it and I'm like, “There are so many things. I remind myself, “You're good. You're capable of it. You have the knowledge or you have the people that have the knowledge. Just go for it. Just do it.” That is something important. I call it sometimes imposter syndrome.

We call it that too.

We always wonder, is it good? Do it and try it at least. Can I try it for a couple of months? If it's not a right fit, that's it. Is it something that we can try? I know in government, it might be easier because you can exchange positions sometimes. There are ways to do things. If you're in the business world, it's different. Maybe sometimes there are opportunities to try different things. I encourage everyone to do that.

I was thinking even recently, I feel like I'm pretty good at bucking myself up and going into things that might be a little challenging. A couple of months ago when I was training for a new thing, my first instinct was, “I need to do some more reading on this and I need to get more well-versed in this particular area.” The woman who was training me was like, “You just need to do it. You just need to do one and learn. Part of it is learning by doing.” I was like, “Okay.” That immediate sense of, “I need to fill up my knowledge and read more before I do something,” that's another variation of what we've been talking about. “I need a little more expertise before I can do this.” No, you're good. You just need to start doing it.

I support that idea.

I was like, “Good point. Maybe I should do it.” I struggle with that continually in different ways over time, but it's good to recognize it or have somebody else recognize it and go, “Nope, you just need to start.” “Okay, that's fine.” That's great. I love your journey and the way you work with your teams. That's something we don't learn in law school, how to work with teams and manage people. In business school, yes, but not in law school. We don't have a lot of team things in law school.

Reflecting on what you're saying now, what came into my mind was when I was in high school, I worked at McDonald's. McDonald's in the 1980s is not the McDonald's of today. I went to McDonald's today and it's very different but we were working all together. For me, that has been something. When you dance, you're dancing all together. You're not dancing on your own. You dance with others. You either have a partner. You all dance together. Being all together, you're better. The more people, the better the product. It might not be efficient. It needs to be efficient.

You have to balance that out and have different perspectives. As appellate lawyers, there are a lot of people who are sole practitioners. I could not do that because I enjoy being able to brainstorm and think about things from different perspectives with my colleagues. I feel like that creates the best arguments and the best product. It challenges you to think about things in different ways. To me, that's part of the whole process. That's what gets the best product for the client.

I agree. We're talking about lawyers, but we have assistants as well. We have paralegals. This is part of the team as well. We were discussing who made a difference in your life. I talked about this person who is a non-lawyer who supported me. She was not a lawyer and she's still not a lawyer, but my assistant. I had the same assistant for almost twenty years. She retired last year and she was awesome. The way she supported me along the way was awesome. I tend to forget things and she had systems to remind me of this and that and post it here. It was her support.

It's not mentorship but without her, I wouldn't have been able to do my job. When you talk about teamwork, everybody plays a role. People that you choose and surround you with are important. That can be in any function. We need to recognize that as well. Everybody's part is important. I cannot dance without the music. I could, but it would be not as interesting. Everybody who is a part of that is important. For me, this is something that I truly tell my team all the time. We do have the meetings. It’s not just the assistant but the assistant with the lawyers. We work all together as well.

In teamwork, everyone plays a role. The people you choose and surround you are important, and they can be in any function.

Lightning Round

A great assistant makes life so different and helps so much. Having a real partnership with them makes the difference all around. You feel that support and you do the same thing back with them. It's neat. I like that when that works well like that too. It's amazing. Christine, usually I end with a few questions or lightning round questions. I'm going to ask a few. Which talent would you most like to have but don't? I know you're a great dancer, so that won't be that. Is there something else talent-wise?

I would love to be able to sing. During those classes, we did comedy and we had to dance and sing. That is part of your ballet, but you do other things as well, like contemporary. I remember we had a singing teacher. Is that how you say it?

Yeah, vocal.

He would say, “You, second row to the left.” I would wave and he’ll say, “Don't sing. Just lipsync.” I would love to have a nice voice. I would sing in my shower and my car but I don't have a voice.

That's okay. I've had some of those things. I was not very athletic in school. I would have moments like that where they go, “You're not on the team. Stay on the sidelines.” I remember that feeling.

Who are some of your favorite writers?

I love Milan Kundera. He wrote The Unbearable Lightness of Being. I like him. He looks at the world and at people in a different way. I love Bono. He writes almost all the songs for U2. If I knew how to sing, I could sing Bono's songs. I could read the lyrics of U2 and Bono. These are the two that I would turn to if I had to read.

That's so awesome. That's an interesting answer, Christine. I thought it was Bono and the lyrics, and then The Edge and the guitar. Those two make U2. Who is your hero in real life?

My father. My father is a great person. He comes from a very simple background and he's worked hard for his family and is still alive. I'm very grateful for that as well. My father is always there to support me, but my sisters, the family, the friends, and even the neighbors. You walk around where he lives, walk in the street, and he knows everyone. People would go out and say, “Your father helps me with this.” He's a great person. He doesn't say much but when he says something, you should listen because it's important.

My father was like that too, a very quiet person, but he would make a comment or interject on something and you're like, “That was good. That was an important point.” For what in life do you feel most grateful?

I'm very grateful to be alive and to live in a country where everything is possible. I think it's the same in the US, we can drink clean water, and we have houses and education. Even for women, we have the education. There are countries where it's not like that. I think I was blessed to be born.

That's a good point.

Without that, everything else would not exist.

I was thinking about all of those opportunities, all the things we talked about for sure. Given the choice of anyone in the world, who would you invite to a dinner party? It could be people who are with us or not with us anymore. It could be more than one person.

That's a difficult one. I miss my cousin. I was raised with a cousin that had the same age. She passed away three years ago from cancer. We were very different. I said that I was the only one to go to university and only my cousin and everything, but we were very close and she brought a lot of joy, very important discussions, like fundamental discussions, and I miss her very much. I guess I would say I would love to have dinner with her and to know how is it on the other side.

That's what I was saying.

What's happening on the other side?

That's cute. The way you said that, I was thinking, this is the person that you can have a relationship with, someone who you can pick up as though you were talking yesterday. You carry on. I had that image when you said that. I was like, “That's probably how their relationship was. That's neat to have that.”

We were very close. She was like my sister. We spent a lot of time together. 'm grateful she was in my life. Every time I go and visit cities around the world, I go to a church and I light a little candle for her. That's the time when I look into myself and have a short discussion with her. I miss her.

I do the same thing when I travel. I always go to a church and I light candles for my family. They do the same thing. It's neat to give that exactly. I was like, “I do that.” It's great to have that moment in a different space. I feel like it gives you a different perspective or opens your mind when you're traveling and you're in a different place. It's neat to bring them with you when you do that in a way.

I know that you would have loved to travel. Look at how beautiful it is. I feel that she sees it with me at the same time. It's neat.

Last question. What is your motto if you have one?

I do have one. I told that to my children, and I tell them that today as well but now they look at me like, “Mom.” My motto is everything is possible, but it takes courage. If you have a dream, you have to make a plan. A dream without a plan, you don't get there. You have difficult decisions to make along the way. That decision takes courage to make. That's what you call a motto. I have been telling that to my children. They stopped at “Everything is possible.”

It has to go on to the rest. The rest of that is something you don't appreciate until you've lived life a little bit more. That's something looking back but you're right. You have to take leaps of faith and you have to apply for the job if you want it even if it seems like a stretch, all of that stuff. A little bit of courage and sometimes more courage. It all depends on what it is, but you're right. You have to do something to make your dream happen.

Everybody can dream. If we were dreaming about going to the moon and not making any plans to get there, we wouldn't be getting there. We need to plan for it. It doesn't mean it's going to go the way you want, but at least you have a plan. When I plan, I have plan A, plan B, plan C, and plan D. I have a lot of different plans, but at the end of the day, you have to make decisions and those decisions are not always easy. If they were, it wouldn't be a dream. It would be something that would be impossible.

It's not impossible. It is possible, but you have to sacrifice and make the decision that needs to be taken if this is worth it. Your dream can change along the way. It goes with the person you become. Your own fault. You're born in a way. You have those characteristics, then along the way, you bring other things into yourself and you discover yourself as well. They're a part of you that can play a bigger role. Your interests can move, depending. Dreams could be different things but I think that's my motto.

That's an important point too. It can evolve over time and to be open to that as well as you grow. It can evolve and as you discover certain things about your dreams, sometimes that can change too. You're like, “Now I know more. Maybe that isn't my dream.” Do something else.

Yes, totally.

Christine, thank you so much for doing this and for participating in the show. I'm so glad we were able to chat.

Thank you so much for the invitation. I had a lot of fun. Thank you, MC. I hope it's useful for at least one person out there.

That's what I think. If it can make a difference even for one person, then it's worth doing.

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