Chief Marketing Officer at Unity and former CEO of ElasticBox

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In this episode, Carol W. Carpenter, Chief Marketing officer at Unity and former CEO of ElasticBox, shares her journey as a marketing powerhouse at Silicon Valley technology firms. She also provides business leadership and teambuilding tips, as well as insights into an effective marketing plan and building a personal brand. A powerful episode from an extraordinary business leader.

Relevant episode links:

Unity, ChatGPT, OpenAI

About Carol W. Carpenter:

Carol is the CMO of Unity where she leads brand and creative, comms, customer insight, community, and more. Prior to joining Unity, she was the CMO of VMware where she led the transformation of the company from license software to subscription and SaaS.

Carol has led teams in large and small companies, including Google, ElasticBox (sold to CenturyLink), Trend Micro, and Apple. She is a self-proclaimed geek with a passion for technology and solving customer problems.

Carol grew up in West Virginia and is a proud Mountaineer! She has a BA from Stanford University and an MBA from Harvard Business School. Her latest passion is Beat Saber, a VR game built on Unity, diving, and hanging with her family.

In this episode, I have joining us Carol Carpenter, who is the Chief Marketing Officer for Unity 3D. She has a lot of interesting insights in terms of marketing. Also, her career in a very male-centric business in the technology arena and just so much to share with those of us women lawyers that we might not think about or at least maybe might have some sense of understanding cross-business law and our experiences as women in the C-Suite and otherwise. Welcome, Carol.

Thank you, MC. I'm thrilled to be here.

Thank you so much for joining. We were having some good discussions about branding and marketing prior to pushing the record for this show. I want to get into those because you have some good insights that will help women lawyers up their brand and marketing as well. First, I want to talk about your journey. You have high-level roles in marketing in companies but also a role as CEO for a company for a while too. That's an interesting mix in the background. What drew you to business and the particular roles that you're in?

It's been such a long and winding road. When we knew each other in university, I had no idea what I wanted to do or be. You were so sure. You knew already and I so much admired you. All I knew was I have two older brothers who were going into medicine. I thought, “I'm not going to be that stereotype. I am not going to do what they're doing.”

I fell into business. One of my first jobs after business school was with Apple. That's where I learned a tremendous amount about positioning and go-to-market, how supply chains work and how you hire, fire and build a team. I feel very fortunate that I ended up in a place like that. I liked the role of what they called product management and product marketing, which is all about how you take a good item and find a product market.

This sounds funny for Apple when you think about Apple now but this was back many years ago. They were not quite the leading tech company they are now. It was always an amazing brand. What I loved about it was, back to your earlier point, when I looked around coming out of business school, there were the consulting firms and the banks. I thought, "I could see a hierarchy and a very male-dominated business environment."

Technology was this rebel. These companies were rebellious. No one wore suits and everybody was somewhat equal. It was very much a meritocracy. I was like, "I'm going to go there and see what happens." Lo and behold, fortunately, I've had some good mentors and sponsors along the way who have said, "Come do this." Here I am.

You may have stumbled into business school. I do recall that you authored a book about how to get into business school after you got into a lot of them after undergrad. You did a pretty good job.

Thank you. I realize that you are a brand and how you pitch yourself, whether it's a business school, a company or an association. How do you ensure? Whom do you want to be? I was fortunate to start thinking about it somewhat early, "I'm going to be a woman in these tech companies. I want to be a leader. I want to be someone who makes things happen, not just plans or reports on them. I want to be a change maker if I can."

In an area that at the time was new in a way. There's more room for that and more room to get a seat at the table when you're saying, "This isn't already a stayed way of operating. These are companies that are pushing the envelope."

I was telling somebody. I was reflecting. In my 28 years of working, I have worked for 8 companies, which sounds like a lot. Half were startups, 2 were unmitigated disasters and 2 were sold. One where I was the CEO, I sold that company. Those were great learning experiences but also speaks, you have to be a little bit adventuresome to be in technology companies.

You have to be a little bit adventurous to be in technology. 

As you've probably seen in 2022, there's been a lot of ebb and flow. You have to deal with ambiguity. Fortunately, I like the ambiguity. I like the fact that there's not a set path. Probably some of that is because I come from a traditional immigrant household where they were so strict. There was a set path. I'm psychoanalyzing it. Some of it is rebellion.

Breaking out in new rebellious directions or something but it was good timing. I think of Apple as being so intertwined with Stanford when we were there too with all the computers and all of the things that we would work with when we were in college. Also, the university's grown up with the technology companies in Silicon Valley so it's been a shared trajectory.

It’s shared. I'm going to age myself. Think about how much the world has changed. We have the internet, Wikipedia and things like ChatGPT. I don't know if that makes your job easier in law. I thought, "I'm going to try this. Write some of the marketing business plans."

How'd that go?

It was not too bad. The ubiquity of it is astounding because theoretically, lots of people will have access. Google already did that. Search has done that. This takes it to the next level. You could do things like create a poster for something coming up like an event. I don't have to be an artist in the true sense but I still have to apply some human judgment.

That was my takeaway after I said, "ChatGPT, write some of my business plans." It gets close. It's not perfect. You still have to put the inputs in like, what are the key milestones? What are the key outcomes? It does a pretty good job of stitching together. Think in law, there probably are some more of the laborious, menial parts. It could help.

I think of it as potentially, a first draft or an outline of something that you could work with but it still is very new and requires significant human input and guidance to make that work. Still, it has people talking and it's interesting.

There are going to be lots of legal issues around ownership. I'm sure that's the buzz. This is indicative. This is why I'm in tech because something like this happens every few years. There's something so innovative. There's a revolution going on around real-time 3D, which started in games. If you think about it, when you play a game, there's no set ending. It all depends. Did you push X? Did you push Y? There's a real-time element. Everything is unfolding. The rest of the entertainment is moving in that direction where you can go into a virtual environment. You can be in a sporting event.

It could be a real-time 3D experience where you as the player or watcher can have an impact. It's pretty phenomenal. We're doing lots of work in architecture and construction where real-time 3D is important for visualization and simulation. We're doing a lot of work with car manufacturers who are trying to create the next experience instead of the dull dashboard. Some experience can engage drivers and create more affinity. We suffer from too many things to go after and market segments. Our challenge is, what are we going to focus on in the near term? What is possible and probable?

It's interesting what you said too in terms of the correlation between where you are now and where you were at the beginning of your career at Apple, in terms of the roles that both of those companies and platforms play for other creators.

Many years ago, Apple was primarily focused on the creative market. People needed to use Photoshop and make beautiful things. They needed graphics capabilities. At Unity, we have this real-time 3D engine for creators, whether you're creating an architectural map of a building or an amazing game or film. I was sharing that we're excited that we have so many creators who are up for Academy Awards for virtual effects and it's using Unity tools. I love that.

Every day somebody is coming and knocks on my Zoom saying, "We've got this interesting thing to show you," whether it's what the City of Orlando is doing with a digital twin to help them simulate weather and traffic patterns to the latest new game coming out on the Xbox that has amazing high-end graphics. Some of the effects in a lot of Avatar were made with digital tools. It's exciting. What you and I were talking about is being on this cutting edge, how do we as leaders in these companies pick and choose what to work on? How to prioritize the combination of knowing the market, knowing the customer and knowing what's possible?

As the Chief Marketing Officer, you're part of the strategy, especially in a company that's developing, like Unity is. That's fun too.

It's fun to see what creators do. I'm excited to see how things go with generative AI and how we deal with some of the challenges of ownership and IP. I'm sure we will make our way through that. Some of the bigger challenges are how you communicate it. I'm sure you have to do this in your role as well. Most people have a cognitive overload. There are too much media and many briefs to read. There's too much marketing coming at them.

In my case, creators and developers to whom I'm trying to explain all the advantages of our real-time 3D engine. They're never going to know it and get into all the details. How do you simplify? I talk to my team a lot. “How do we reduce cognitive overload? How do we reduce the cost of customer thinking?” Make it easy and simple. When people say, "What is marketing," a big part of marketing and communication is simplifying.

You have to understand a lot more to be able to simplify. That's part of the reason a lot of people don't do it. You have to have a deep understanding to know what's essential.

I'm sure you do that in law all the time.

We say things like, "If I had more time, I would've written a shorter brief." It requires more effort and editing to par it down and make those choices.

What you and I were talking about is what you're doing is creation as well, writing a brief. You're creating something. We work with creators and it's a very joyful process. It's about sharing, communicating and changing minds, hearts and hopefully, the world at some level. That's where marketing isn't just brand or demand. It's being part of the strategy. It's about understanding the market and being a market maker.

Marketing isn't just brand or demand; it's being part of the strategy, understanding the market, and being a market maker.

My first boss at Apple was my boss' boss. She used to ask me what I watched on TV. I'm like, "I'm too busy. I don't watch TV." She goes, "Don't be an intellectual snob. You've got to watch all the shows that your audience is watching," whether it's Friends, which I did watch. Her point was well-taken. If you don't understand your customer, how could you ever hope to communicate with them?

That's been an interesting aspect of even the show, talking to a lot of different judges and understanding from a lot of different angles. What are they doing in their job every day that I could do to make that job easier? Understanding how they're thinking, what they're doing and how that impacts how I would present a case, write a brief or put things together. I'm thinking about what they're working with day to day. That's been an interesting change of perspective. I've talked to so many across the country that I get different insights from each of them about what that might look like. It's impacted how I put things together and how I think about it.

You're insightful about it because it's marketing 101, know your audience. That's the first step. Many people want to skip over it and talk about their point of view on a case.

Think about that. We were talking about before, in terms of when you're thinking of marketing, you're thinking of the reasons you make decisions. The functional economic and then emotional. Often those are stated from the perspective of the person who has something to sell. Maybe you care about that more than the person who might want to work with you. You have to pay attention to that. Lawyers do that a lot. We talk about our experience and our background, this and that, which is helpful. It makes people feel comfortable but maybe someone's more interested in knowing what you would do in their case or something about their concerns.

Those are important. When people talk about product market fit, marketing or selling, at the end of the day, everyone is human. We make our decisions because of those three things, economic, emotional and functional reasons. If I'm going to buy a pen at Target, it's pretty functional and economic. It's heavier on that. If I'm going to buy a car, it's going to be more emotional. If I'm going to hire a lawyer, it's going to be a combination of those things. The functional element is, "What's your batting average? What else have you done? Tell me more of that history." As you pointed out, there's an emotional element to our decision-making.

Great marketing, selling and storytelling get to that point of tapping into the emotion. It has to be layered in different doses, depending on the situation. If you can get to the why of why people are thinking, why they're doing something or why this product or service makes sense, hands down, you've got a winner.

I think about that too in terms of legal tech. There's a lot of technology that lawyers use. Some of it is AI-assisted but different kinds of technology. Results can vary depending on the item but to help you in your practice. Whether it's managing cases, reviewing a brief or legal writing for grammar using AI. Sometimes the cases that the companies make for that are purely functional. Here's what my product can do in a functional way. The better ones understand why a lawyer would want to use that and beyond just a functional component.

That goes for leadership. Everybody wants to be a valued member of a winning team with an inspired mission. If you're leading, people want to feel valued. Value has a functional and economic component. Making sure of the inspired mission, people want to be part of something bigger than themselves. Part of my leadership is some have made lots of mistakes. A big piece of it is underestimating how much the inspired mission matters to people. They want to know why are we doing what we're doing.

They might have their inspiration or reasons for doing things but being part of a larger mission, people like to know what it is.

That's where you have longevity, retention and even an endowed economy. That's a big reason why I enjoy Unity, what we're doing and why it reminds me so much of Apple. There is an underlying inspiring mission around the world's better with more creators in it. We want to unleash, help them and democratize all the tools so that you and I can make blue people someday.

It's the elite few. I find it so inspirational personally. When I say it feels a lot like Apple, Apple was a much bigger company and I was making different kinds of products. That inspired mission is so critical. I'm very confident in where the company's going. When there are tough times, you can fall back on, "I'm here for a reason. I believe in it." One of the reasons I also came here is I learned that there's an annual user conference, like many tech companies have an annual user conference. Developers were lying up to get a Unity tattoo. There's that much passion.

The passion and the excitement about what's going on.

That's how I felt when I was at Apple. I've worked at other large tech companies. I'm not going to say their names. They’re amazing companies and I had great experiences. They didn't engender the same passion.

What do you think is the formula for that? What contributes to that both at the company level? Also, it is helpful to know not only what your team's why is or what the company's why is but what would inspire or drive members of your team and how do you find out what that is? Sometimes people might say one thing but it's something else.

Some of it is talking to them and getting to know them. The interesting part is some of the magic is the community and our employees. When you work at Apple, you use Apple products and it's the same now. Apple's great. At Unity, a lot of the people who work here are also people who, in their spare time, make games, real-time 3D, movies and special effects. They are part of the community. It's a guild.

Maybe it's similar in law in some ways but that's what drives the experience. There's the experience of, "I'm making tools to help people like myself." There's a real passion. The downside is it's a love-hate. If we do things as a company that they don't think are consistent with our values, with all the tools like Slack and online, there's a tremendous amount of feedback all the time. You have to take the love and the hate too.

It's interesting when you're saying democratizing access to this tool because it seems like that fits also with where being a creator where it's so much more expansive. There are a lot of social media content creators, where it's pretty wide-ranging when you say creator. It doesn't require some big movie studio anymore.

Think about it like it used to be. The tools were only in the hands of a few. You can make a video on your phone and there it goes. I have not used TikTok much. I should use it more because it is a very powerful marketing tool but it's incredible. Some people have made careers out of being creators on these platforms. It's powerful.

There'll be more types of creation. I think it's awesome. What is needed though, because there's so much, is how do you cut through all the noise? That's what I believe marketing needs to do. It has to cut through the noise. You have to identify what's going to move people or businesses to do things and be very succinct. Keep it simple. There's this plethora of media all around us.

Marketing needs to cut through the noise. You have to identify what's really going to move people or businesses to do things and be very succinct. Keep it simple. There's just this plethora of media all around us. 

It can be overwhelming. That's the downside to the democratization of everything. There's a whole bunch more that comes at you and it can be hard to cut through it.

You could argue with Yahoo and Google for a search. We're trying to simplify or curate the results. We're going to see that with tools. There are always those experts who will curate. We're going to see it with a lot of these OpenAI initiatives that people are going to curate a little bit of abstraction around them or a layer so that you don't get thousands of choices. It'll be much more focused. Hopefully, the people doing the curation are ethical and have high integrity.

There are concerns about that but yes, with so much out there, that becomes the question of how you parse through it. It's a whole other issue.

Think about how many podcasts are out there. How do you break through? I imagine everyone wants the shortcut. If you can do it in an authentic and high-integrity way, give people shortcuts so they know what to look for. A podcast about amazing judges, lawyers and people like Carol who are good in their business.

You're a leader. That's a good segue in tying together your experience in business and some of the challenges we face as women lawyers, whether we're in large firms or whatever practice we're in. There are still not a lot of us at the higher levels of the profession. We're working on it but we're not quite there. I wonder if you have any best practices, tips or things that you've learned along the way in terms of navigating a very male-centric C-Suite in several tech companies. Any secret sauce in navigating at that level?

I've been fortunate. I have had some amazing mentors and sponsors. We all need them. Many of them were not at the same company where I was, which was helpful because they could give me an objective opinion.

That can be challenging if they're at your current company. There are limits.

The other part is you have to lean in. I grew up as one of very few Asians in West Virginia. My parents always said a little bit of that immigrant mentality like, "You, Carol, are going to need to be 2X better to get the same recognition." That's always stuck with me. I'm not saying women should work harder but we need to advocate more and talk about it more. I was not raised to talk about salaries or money out loud. I've had to overcome that. My kids and others are very comfortable sharing everything. They share a whole too much. Knowledge is power.

Being able to say yes, leaning in, speaking up and not being afraid to call it when you see it is so interesting. I see the early career folks at Unity. They are so poised and unafraid. I am like, "That is great. How do we cultivate more of that?" I feel very fortunate because I was in places where there was some psychological safety.

Knowledge is power and so is being able to speak up and not being afraid to call it when you see it.

I could lean in. I could state my opinion without feeling like an imposter. Some of that comes with time and confidence. Realize how many people are hand waving their way and people above you whom you think know everything is kabuki dancing their way around. That's how I ended up as CEO. I had come out of a CMO role.

I was talking to some friends and they're like, "Here you are saying that you think you could have done a better job than those first-time CEOs. Why don't you go do that?" I'm like, "I am." It's how it happened. Stop complaining about other CEOs whom you don't think are effective. Go do it. It's the hardest job I've ever had.

What did you learn? That goes in the risk-taking category for sure but also, thinking outside the box.

It was and wasn't because my VC friends were on the board. They were very supportive. I was going into a very supportive board. I knew two of them on a personal level. However, it was a company that was in a turnaround situation. I learned three things and I wrote this down so I wouldn't forget them.

1) There's a difference when you're CMO, Chief of Sales or whatever your function is. As CEO, you start with no. Everything starts with no. People have to justify why they want more headcount, programs and M&A deals to go through versus when you're not the CEO, a lot of it is, "Yes and. Yes but. Yes, let me think about that." You're doing the one pitching to the CEO. As CEO, you have to start with no because everybody's always asking a gazillion things of you.

2) I learned that if you're going to make changes to people, processes and structure, do it early and fast like the whole, "I'm going to take 90 days or 100-day plan." This is true of any leadership position. When you go into a company, 30% of the population is going to say, "I love what you're saying, MC. I'm on board."

Thirty-three percent are going to be like, "I don't like the changing of the guard. I don't like this. I'm out." Those are the easy 33%. It's that middle 33% who's ambivalent, ambiguous and who can become very poisonous if you don't quickly determine who's on the bus and who's not. Either win them or decide it's time to part ways. They can undermine. It can be the most dangerous part of allowing that to go too long. That was my second big lesson.

3) Your venture capitalists and board members whom you may think of as your friends are business people, first and foremost. They are like, "Don't worry. You go there. If things don't work out, we'll bridge you. We'll help you raise another round." No, you are on your own. Yes, they meet and their intentions are good but you are on your own. Those are my three big things. Thank you for asking.

That 33% is interesting. Doing something quickly, that's one. I always think that the biggest hazard is the most significant and early detractors. That middle ground is an interesting perspective.

I like the people who say, "I don't agree with your strategy. I don't want to tough it out." When the going gets tough, the tough get going. They're going to part ways. It's that middle group that can undermine, question and create lethargy in the org.

It’s because of their ambivalence in a way. They're not committed either way. I'm glad you mentioned those three things because I was thinking that's interesting and different. Also, the way you said that being the CEO, the first thing is no. Whereas the other roles are like, "Let's see how we can make that happen." You're trying to bring people together and move things forward.

It was a real mind shift for me. Most companies are like, "Yes. Have we thought about it? Do you want to do this big campaign? Let me think about it. Do you want to position things differently? Okay." You're trying to be much more collaborative and not a CEO. You cannot start there. You will drown in too many requests and asks.

That was an epiphany for me in terms of thinking about those two different ways. It's a great teaching moment. Thank you, Carol.

It's a hard role and probably the most emotionally stressful role, my family will say. After I did that, I learned a lot and I never want to be a CEO again. The burden of the people, their families and everyone is my responsibility. It's tremendous.

You're like, "I've done that. I've had that role. I'm done with that."

To your point, I've learned a lot. I know how to work better with CEOs and boards.

I'm sure that you've brought that and that's impacted your current role because you understand the pressures and the decision-making, what's going on in the CEO's mind and the board's mind.

I admit sometimes in marketing, we get caught up in our shiny ideas or we get excited about certain activities. It was a good lesson. It made me a better marketer because it became much more about, "What's going to impact customers? What's going to impact the top or the bottom line? If it's not, park it for now."

That can often be the criticism of the marketing department and sales like, "That sounds nice but what's essential?" Being open to that opportunity, that's another thing. You could have said, "No, I just do marketing. I'm not going to be a CEO. That's not my thing." You were open to that opportunity which might not have come up if it hadn't been in that particular circumstance where the company needed help. You knew people who were like, "Sure. Come on down because we need help. You could help."

I'll tell you what was useful. The cofounder of that particular startup was a brilliant, big-hearted person. He became my partner in crime. It was great. Having a good partner like that derisks it a little bit. Someone you know you can trust and who has high integrity. He derisked it for me. It made me appreciate like, "Now I know how CEOs work. I could do it." I know I can do it but I choose not to.

I always think that expanding your tool set and your experience and seeing the different perspectives, even if you decide you don't want to do that again, adds to your next role. You're thinking about that perspective that somebody in that other seat might have because you were there.

I feel very fortunate. I've worked in some amazing companies where lots of people taught me new things and perspectives. That's what makes the journey fun.

Work in amazing companies where lots of people can teach you new things and new perspectives. That's what makes the journey fun. 

Tell me about the mentors and sponsors you mentioned who weren't at the companies you were at. How did they come to mentor you? How did you come to know them? How does that work? A lot of people have a lot of mystery around mentoring and sponsoring. Everybody's like, "I need one of those. How do I get one? What does that look like? What do they look like when I run across one?" I always think it's helpful to hear the stories of how it organically evolves.

In my case, she had worked with my husband. My husband spoke so highly of her and then I ended up meeting her. I was like, "She's so interesting." She is a little bit older and she was someone that I respected. I said, "Could I pick your brain every few months? Could I buy you coffee or lunch and pick your brain?" I did something very specific when I became CEO of a company called ElasticBox.

I was a first-time CEO and I recommend this. Everybody has to have a first time doing something. I said, "I am going to have my kitchen cabinet." I asked five acquaintances, people I knew who were first-time CEOs. I said, "Once a quarter, I'm going to host a dinner. If you can make it, I would appreciate it but I would like you to be part of my kitchen cabinet." In a lot of the leadership roles, it's a very lonely place. I would say the CEO role in particular. You can't talk to your board about all of your challenges because you don't want them to know, "I don't know what I'm doing."

At the same time, you don't want your reports. There's a level of vulnerability but then there's, where are you going to get good advice? At any point in time, only 2 or 3 of them could make dinner but it was invaluable. I asked them things like, "How do you look at financing when you go out for your series C? How do you think about your existing VCs? How do you know when your sales leader is not making it?" It’s tons of questions that as a first-time CEO, I didn't know. How to negotiate my office lease? Whom should I use? Do I need a broker? Who are the best brokers? Things that you do when you're responsible.

In law, I've only heard of one kitchen cabinet situation like that with general counsel because they have a similar very lonely role where they can't ask their direct reports certain things. Somebody who's like them, a lot of them would be first-time general counsel. They'd meet a couple of times a year at various points across the country to share those notes.

It's invaluable. One of them is a mentor and it's a he, interestingly enough. I've been mentoring others. I've asked one of them to reverse mentor me. He's early in his career. She has a different view of the world and social media. I said, "I need to learn from you." I'm learning a ton. We were talking about TikTok. She was showing me how different campaigns are running and how to think about it. I'm like, "This is fascinating."

It's good to be open-minded to say, "There's something that I don't know. Let's cross-share that information and do the reverse mentoring." You're the first one to mention that. That's an important thing.

Especially as the generational gaps grow. When I was at Google, there was a woman whom I asked to be my mentor because I admired her. She was in a different product area and business unit. I thought she was amazing and she said yes. How do you find them? Find somebody you admire. Sometimes they say yes. Sometimes they say no. It's a little bit of marketing. You have to make it super easy for them. "I will come to you. I will bring the coffee to you." Make it super simple.

In terms of marketing, make it easy for them to say yes. I think about it in terms of you asking for someone to give off their time and wisdom. Meet them where they are so that they don't have to do other things or make it difficult for them. It's a recognition that you've asked for a gift and you are going to be extremely respectful of that.

You need to gift back, which is, "I saw this article that relates to my sponsor's business area." Give back. It doesn't take a lot of time.

I think of it as thinking about the other person.

Know your audience.

Listen to the other person. This reminded me of something that you talked about. You might find this interesting. When it's genuine, it's give and take building relationships.

It sounds like you've done a lot of it too. It's up to us. We have to move and lift, keep moving and lifting.

What advice would you give to someone who might be wanting to start in the business world, even a lawyer who might want to be, "I don't want to be in law anymore. I want to become a CEO or some other C-Suite role?"

I work with a few of those. They're incredibly talented. Good training that the law provides in terms of methodical thinking or critical thinking. Technology is a great place to be because it is so dynamic. It is welcoming to a much more diverse set of backgrounds and education. We have people who don't have college degrees. We have people who do.

It's much more about potential, appetite and passion than any specific degree. If you're interested, find business areas you're interested in and find people to network with and learn. "Carol, what's it like?" I have my fair share of people who reached out. I want to learn more about what you do. It's surprising how many people will give you the time.

That's an interesting point because a lot of people think, "No one will even respond to me," but that's not true.

I tell people who are already in tech but I would say this to somebody in law. There's an X, Y and Z axis. You can change your level as you move from firm to firm. You can change your function and domain experience. It's hard to change all three at the same time. If you're a lawyer saying, "I'm going to do business development." It would be ideal if maybe it was in your practice area, if it was entertainment or if it was gaming.

You can change your level as you move from firm to firm. You can change your function, you can change your domain experience, and it's kind of hard to change all three at the same time.

I see what you're saying. Try not to change everything all at once.

If you're thinking about career changes or new changes, try to keep 1 of the 3 a little bit constant or go in-house as a lawyer into a business and then move.

That's a common move where you go in-house with a company. That's a huge move for us even to move from the in-house position to a business position in the same firm in which you were the in-house lawyer.

I've seen it and I'm sure you have too. Typically, in Corp Dev, some adjacencies are a little easier is what I've seen but it's doable. You can change your function, maybe if you're in the same domain. I tell people, "Try not to change all three at the same time."

You said lawyers think critically and methodically but you do too. You're like, "Here's how we break it down. We break it down into these things. These are the different levels you're operating on. Don't try to have a complete earthquake in everything all at once. Even I had thought about things that way. When I see it, the move seems more natural. Although, it's still challenging from in-house to corporate in the same firm. That's because you're only changing your function within the same company, industry and all that.

I'm sure lawyers who are deep into healthcare can take that domain experience in healthcare and go do work at another healthcare company in the business world. Here’s one thing I have to remind myself of because I get impatient. When you are trying to change more than one of those elements at the same time, you have to be willing to perhaps make a lateral move or potentially even take a step back. There was a highest-ranking female partner at Deloitte and she wrote a book about your career is not a ladder anymore. It is very much a lattice. I love that metaphor because it speaks to what it is. Very few people go up a corporate ladder in one place.

I remember that book. That was an interesting analogy, for sure. Also, there was another interesting comment that was made by another guest on the show who's a judge. She talked in a little bit different way, which was that women tended to have to make more lateral moves in the law. People's vision of what was possible for their growth potential was more limited.

In other words, they could see your potential for a few years but not more than that. You had more in you but they couldn't see that. They didn't treat you that way or provide you with those opportunities. You have to go somewhere else where somebody else has a five-year vision and they can see that next step for you. I thought that was an interesting way of describing it. It's certainly been the experience of a lot of women I know in the law.

I see that in business too.

Carol, I've learned so much from this. It's been so interesting. I appreciate it.

It's been so much fun.

You're various. You're like, "It's this and this." I'm like, "Wow, you boiled it down." I never thought of those areas. If you make too much of a move, that's going to be an issue. Also, the CEO of no. I thought that was also interesting. I'm like, "Everyone's coming to you with something." Thinking about that and not judging that but understanding why that is in that role. You say, "My job is to make that case, why this one should be yes and why it makes sense."

You have to pressure test. That's effectively what you're doing by saying no, causing people to argue and change your no to a yes. Many times, it worked. People eventually said yes but it creates a lot of that pressure testing.

I usually end with a last set of lightning-round questions. I'm going to ask you a couple of them. Which talent would you like to have but don't have?

I wish I was one of those people who didn't need to sleep eight hours. I'm so jealous. I had an international business trip. I was destroyed, jet-lagged. The people are like, "I slept five hours, I feel great." I'm like, "Who are you?"

Who is your hero in real life?

My current hero and I know a lot of people look up to her, is Michelle Obama. She has come into her own. You can see her style. She always showed it but she's wearing brighter colors more. She's very comfortable with who she is and her aging. She's committed to speaking her mind and has shown a lot of vulnerability in talking about her marriage. I respect her a lot.

That's an interesting way of describing it, a comfort level with yourself. As a result, you're being a lot more authentic and sharing more of yourself with the world. Given the choice of anyone in the world, whom would you invite to a dinner party?

I can't say his name correctly but the president of Ukraine. He would be super interesting to talk to. I have great respect for Kamala Harris. I would love to have a dinner party with her. You. I haven't talked to you in ages and this has been so delightful. Could you imagine if we could have a glass of wine and dinner? We'd hit on so many topics.

That would be awesome. I know. We just scratched the surface. It would be fun. Last question. What is your motto, if you have one?

I used to say to my kids when they were growing up, "Do great things." I heard this beautiful story about this HBS student. She was dropped off at school and her dad said, "Enjoy it. Do good." She was like, "No. You mean to do well." He would say it over and over again. He meant, "Do good." I've modified it and I say to my kids, "Do good things." It's not just about doing great things. It's about doing the good things that are good for the world, others and yourself.

It's not just about doing the great things, it's about doing the good things that are good for the world, good for others, and good for yourself. 

That's a good distinction between great things and huge accomplishments. Good things can be sometimes small things that matter a lot to people.

I've changed my thinking about, "Everything has to be 10X. If it's not great impact, don't waste your time." A lot of things happened. Look at a lot of laws. It takes time. You can do good things that are small and sometimes unseen or unnoticed but have a greater impact down the road. That's my new motto. It's not that new as my kids have gotten older.

You've adjusted it as you've evolved and seen the value of that in people's lives too. That's a great reminder of the things we can do that can make a difference every day. Thank you so much, Carol Carpenter. You’re a tech company whiz and marketing whiz. I appreciate this. It's been an interesting conversation that I've learned a lot.

I enjoyed it thoroughly. You're amazing, MC. Thanks for having me.