Episode 129: Ashley Herd
00:58:21
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Show Notes
Ashley Herd believes conducting in-depth performance conversations is the best way to nurture and improve manager-employee relationships. Therefore, she made it her mission to provide efficient training and scalable tools to build healthy workplaces through her company, Manager Method. Ashley joins MC Sungaila to share how she uses her background in employment law and experience in corporate sales to help grow relationships within a business. She also talks about utilizing her strong online presence in TikTok to provide practical legal advice to her followers, guiding others on upholding the law while doing all things with empathy.
Relevant episode link:
Manager Method , Trees Atlanta , The 4-Hour Workweek , Radical Candor , Atomic Habits , The Partner Track
About Ashley Herd:
Ashley Herd is a former General Counsel and Head of HR now provides training and tools for employees and managers through her company Manager Method, and is the creator of the @managermethod TikTok account. She has been named a Top 3 #HRTikTok creator by the Financial Times and appeared in CNN, NPR and CEO Weekly.
Transcript
On this episode, I’m pleased to have joined us our guest, Ashley Herd. She has an amazing in-house career and now has an innovative practice of her own called Manager Method, and she also has a tremendously popular TikTok presence. Welcome.
Thank you. It's so good to be here, MC.
I want to definitely get into your trajectory and your relatively new operation, which bridges law and business, management, and the employment side. First, I wanted to ask, what got you into law, to begin with? What made you think, “I might want to be a lawyer.”
I think about this, and you get this sometimes, especially even when you're interviewing. I wish I had a better answer, but I remember being a little kid, let's say 7 or 8, and watching movies in the ‘80s. I was seeing these lawyers and they looked very impressive. Growing up, we had more humble beginnings, and so it looked fascinating to me. I wanted to go to New York. I’ve never lived in New York, but you see these characters on TV and in the movies. It looked interesting. I was academic in school, so you often got pushed that way.
I decided I was going to. I went to the Kentucky State Fair and you could make a sheriff's badge. Most people would've made. An 8 or 9 years old Ashley, I made one that said, “Ashley Vinzel, Corporate Lawyer.” I must have looked like super weirdo. You can tell how cool I was growing up, but I had my mind set on it. It was funny to think of a corporate lawyer and that was the ‘80s. I guess Gordon Gecko had an influence on me but it was that.
I ended up going to lunch with a lawyer in town that my parents knew. There were no lawyers in my family. We didn't know any except for this woman so I went with her. I spent half a day at this large law. I got some swag and we had a great lunch at the nicest restaurant I’d ever been to in Louisville, and I thought, “This is for me.” I had my mindset on it, and after that, it took me time to figure out what I wanted that to look like, but lawyer was dead-set.
Eventually, your mom went to law school too, so I wonder if there are some inherent skills or interests that cross the generations there.
I think so.
Isn't that funny how you come up with something like that when you're a kid and not having anyone in the family or knowing anything? I had the same thing. I decided I was going to be a lawyer and my parents were like, “What? Where did you get that from?” “I don't know. I thought first being a poet, and then I thought that probably wouldn't keep a riff over my head, so it’s probably something else.”
You have the creativity in the use of words, so it all flows together. It is so funny when you get dead-set and then back into something. I’ve definitely done that at other times in my life that said yes to something and backed in. It's the origin story. I guess it depends on what's on Lifetime movies or ABC or whatever can change someone's life.
There are some people from different eras who said Perry Mason did for them what they wanted to do. From our era, there were a lot of those Wall Street, Working Girl, and all of those different movies that are inspiring.
I worked in DC before law school, so I was in business. I definitely had some heels and some shoes, so I’ve embodied some of that Working Girls. I thought I would have made it now that I had heels and my bag.
Going to law school helps to have some vision of what you want to do and why you're there, but it doesn't always turn out that that's what you end up doing. You find new things in law school or maybe not. Did you stick with the corporate lawyer after law school?
I did, but I did it in a little bit of a niche of employment law. I got into that because, before law school, I went to a liberal arts school, center college in Danville, Kentucky. It super liberal arts. I had no business background. How was I going to become a corporate lawyer with this? I moved to DC and worked in corporate sales. We used to cold-call chief financial officers of Fortune 1000 companies. The shared skill my mother and I have is research now on the internet, but she'd become a librarian before law school.
We've always both had this research and so I got the Fortune Magazine subscription. I memorized the time. It was Sarbanes Oxley many years ago. I tried to get as much as I could. I did well in the cold calling so I ended up being promoted, going around the country, and meeting with heads of HR for the program to sell to chief human resources officers in the US and Canada. It turns out outside sales was not my calling but I developed some great relationships along the way and I love the research.
I nerded out on that. The company I worked for, Corporate Executive Board, now Gartner, they were doing work with Gallup and Harvard Business Review on employee engagement and what drives people. It's oil or alert, not pay. When I met with these chief human resources officers and told them, “I’m going to law school.” A lot of them said, “Go into employment law. You'll never miss out on work or things like that.” I took that and ended up going into management side in employment law in corporate environments or even retail. I use some of that business knowledge. I really have an interest in employment law. I took that and I did stick with it throughout my career.
Hearing that makes a lot of sense about where you are now. After we put all the threads together, sometimes, looking back, that makes complete sense in our life. At that time, you're making decisions as you can as opportunities come to you. Honestly, the background in sales, being able to talk to people in a persuasive way in that area, and also hearing the concerns or the needs of people on the business side of HR is a huge lift up to be starting on the law side because you have the understanding of the client.
It did tremendously help me, especially when I went in-house and you may be dealing with challenges of sales is a huge aspect of litigation from overtime to California Business expenses. I’m not California bar, but I’ve pro se in a number of California litigation on business expenses so I was able to relate in depositions and even strategy and then on the HR side of the thinking behind what motivates sales employees. I know what that's like to want that sale or what it's like to be inside and outside sales and what those experiences are.
It absolutely helped me. Also, having some ground and a sense of the world. I almost dropped out of law school. I’d say this now because, this time of year, first-years are getting ready for their exam. After my first semester, I was in the bottom quarter of my class. I was at Emory so a lot of these people had done well.
I’d done very well all through my life and was devastated. I thought, “What am I possibly going to do?” I thought I had to drop out. I felt my worth was impacted by this. I didn't know what to do. I’d had a challenging personal first semester. I ended up doing a strategy. The advisors talked about this, but I thought I was going to stick with this. I did a lot better second semester, but then in my 2nd and 3rd years, I took as many employment law classes as I could, especially with adjuncts. In those classes, I felt I came alive talking more practically. That was more of my thing, which probably is why I do what I do now. I did well in talking in practically every single class.
I ended up pulling myself up. I graduated top 30%, so I tell people, “You can do it also wherever you are. If you’re at the top or bottom, it doesn't define at all who you are, and there are so many possibilities with all these experiences.” Having been, at times, at the bottom, I felt that despair. I know what it's like to be on a performance review.
Being at the top or bottom doesn’t define who you are. There are so many possibilities that allow you to do anything you want.
All those experiences, you can say at that time, can feel many things, mostly awful. They build this quilt that creates who you are and the value you can bring. I try to bring that often to my corporate or retail clients to bring that sensitivity and common sense and think about people's motivations to get the right result.
I love the way you talk about that as a quilt because that's right. When people shine is when they're in a place that only they, with all of their talents and personality and everything together, could do. That feels more meaningful and that's what you're meant to do. We like feeling that. You have an important message about law school because it's very linear. People will often say, “If I don't do well in that first semester, everything is downhill from there. What am I going to do?” I’ve seen that same phenomenon either where people's special talent is in some other way.
It's some other thing that hasn't yet been called upon in the law school environment or sometimes people take longer. You're talking about completely rewiring someone's brain and how they think about things. I remember thinking the one thing I’ve got going into law school is I’m a great writer. All of that got slashed, burned, and taken away. Everything that was good before was left in a heap on the floor.
They're like, “You don't know how to write at all. You have to rebuild and start over.” I was like, “That was the one thing I thought I had.” “No. You got to do that.” I remember that one of my TAs and mentors at that time said to me, “You've succeeded in getting here. You're going to succeed the same way you always have. Do what you've done and what's worked for you before. It may take a little longer and all of this, but don't change who you are in order to make it through this environment.” I remember that it helped me to carry on. There are a lot of things like that. Each person could be different.
Sometimes, in law school, there's that feeling of, “If I don't do this particular thing or I don't do particularly well for the semester, everything is slanted towards that.” I remember in law school, for us, it was like, “If you don't have that, then you can't get a good first-year summer gig or you can't get this.” There's no sense of improvement or coming back. It's all downhill. That must be hard to deal with. In that environment, that's the message you get.
It is. I remember sitting in the first year of the second semester. There are not that many interviews, so it was hard to get any type of big law firm. You think, “You got to get in a big law firm.” I had an interview at a big law firm. I remember talking to this woman. She was lovely, but she said, “I’ll be honest. You’re great with your grades but I’m not going to be able to advance you for an interview.” I appreciated a lot of things about that. She was honest in the moment and she took time to say it rather than getting that rejection letter.
I started crying because I was a bit more stealed. At that time, it felt like it let things out. There's so much pressure. She said, “I say that but there are many things you can do. Any experience you get is going to be good. Go on and keep your head up.” She was in Louisville. It’s my hometown where I was from. I was in Atlanta at law school, but when we moved back to Louisville later, I’d send an email and told her, “I don't know how much that impacted me that you were honest with me but also that advice.”
I ended up that summer, splitting half between a small employment law firm and the other half with my assigned mentor, Emory. I’d requested a younger woman in a large law firm, thinking that they'll show me the way. I got an older gentleman who had a solo personal injury practice and I thought, “What is happening?” He was wonderful and I worked with him. He was brilliant. He graduated third in his class and had this very selective personal injury practice. I learned so much about the care for people on either side and how it's important. Even though I went on to do defense-related work, I learned how plaintiffs are people, how you care for them, and how he treated the defense counsel.
He was polite and everything. Those experiences, even with small firms and I went on to generally work in larger firms, were so instrumental. As I said, every step of the way, at times, it can feel daunted or you feel less than. I am so glad I’ve had those experiences. They've built who I am and have taught me to appreciate perspectives and gotten things that I would never have if I’d taken that linear path.
Also, the experience in that is so much environment. Context is important, but also what individual people provide those individual connections with people, the lawyer who mentored you, and the lawyer who was in the interview in deciding where you can best thrive. Especially as a new lawyer looking for those opportunities for experience and growth, someone caring about that growth and training for you can make a huge difference.
I couldn't agree more.
You focused on employment law and kept that focus in different ways throughout your career. How did you decide to go in-house then?
I was around that magic time in the fourth year. At the time, I was a baby bear. Not too new and not too old. I stay from practice. I had gone to a firm that was a boutique. Everyone had been lawyer in a large international law firm. Labor and employment don't always make sense in a large law firm so they'd started boutiques. I’m a fan of the boutique model for labor and employment firms.
I was spending 80% to 90% of my time at Cumulus Media, which was a radio company. There’s a lot of California operations and all of that. I did some counseling for them, but they threw an acquisition. It had grown and needed to add another lawyer. It was a natural fit. I spent a lot of time and on other things.
My daughter was one and a half and my practice was national. I didn't have any cases in Georgia. It was literally all over the country. Even trying to schedule depositions felt a lot of stress. Having had a business background, I thought this would be a good time, and I could keep up relationships with my old firm and all of that.
When I went in-house, the general counsel had said, “You'll take a pay cut of 15% to 20% from private practice. Part of your compensation is ours. You'll work 8:00 to 5:00. I don't expect you to work after that.” Once, I had to work until 6:00, and this was during a huge M&A deal that we were working on. We had three lawyers in a lein team.
It’s a billion-dollar company with 7,000 employees. It was crazy what we did within the constraints of 8:00 to 5:00. He called us Gone Girls. My assistant, the attorney and I left at 5:01, and it was totally fine and cool. It was lightning in a bottle. The most interesting thing to me from a legal sense was all the stuff that I thought I knew because I’d worked with them all the time never bubbled up to outside counsel. The things that people came to me with were so eye-opening, which many people who have since gone in-house have seen.
It was completely different, but I loved it. I thrived, and our group was wonderful. I became a generalist and I googled my way through learning things. I did it for my interest in business, some of that business, and having one client. Also, candidly, the schedule can vary in-house. It was an absolutely manageable schedule. That was transformational at that point in my life with young kids.
I think about that in terms of having a holistic view of your life overall, which you have. Sometimes people think of it as work-life balance, but it's one person with all of these different aspects to you and how you integrate those together. At certain times, the integration requires something different.
I agree. At that time, it helped me to have that splice. We've all had time in our careers with whatever we have going on. It’s like, “I’ll do this.” I’ll open my laptop every night and was like, “I didn't want to do that.” I was tired of doing that from what I needed to do for my practice. Everyone that I knew at that point in time, still to this day, knew how much I loved my job because I felt like that was exactly what I needed.
We won this award for Best Small In-house Team even though we were a large public company, and they called us Merry Band of Lawyers. It was true. It was also fun because it was radio, so you'd be working on something and then everyone would have to go watch the Backstreet Boys. Everyone comes downstairs. I love celebrity gossip, so it was everything to me. People were like, “How are you guys laughing so much?” We'd watch YouTube videos and we had this balance. That was so eye-opening to me because few lawyers have that. I always bring that with me.
Wherever I’ve gone or whenever I work with clients now is finding that enjoyment even in the toughest times. We deal with so much darkness in legal or it can be so stressful. When I work with opposing counsel, I’ve generally refused to have animosity unless they do so first, and then I’m happy to respond. It opened my eyes to a way to do great work, live a great life, and find that balance. I’m so thankful to have had that early on in my career.
It's almost like until you're in it, you feel it, and you see it. You might not think that's possible in the law because people are so serious about everything all the time. In that setting, you don't choose all the people you're working with. You're entering into a group so you don't have any say in the other members of the group. The likelihood of that chemistry happening and all of that working together seems pretty unlikely. It's neat to see it when it does happen.
You end up in situations and can't control everything. There may be certain people who are like, “I’m going to avoid this situation.” There are things that you can control. If you bring that energy, sometimes you're surprised at how many people may respond. It's a breath of fresh air. I remember my intern at the Federal Aviation Administration, which I called the Federal Aviation Authority right after I’d printed 500 resumes. I had to go and reprint them all. Of course, I’m in law school, and I’m like, “That's expensive. It's paper.”
I went and planted a tree. I interned and there was a paralegal that worked there. He was so nice. He'd worked there forever. One day, he said, “I call you Cool Breeze on a summer day.” The thing I realized that I brought, which isn't for lawyer, is I always try to have fun. I’ve had enough things happen in my life that isn't fun, and so I try to bring that. I always try to bring some cool breeze and spirit wherever I go, even in a government environment.
That's funny that someone noted that. This is very special of you. It comes across in your work now and videos that I often see, which is an authentic sense of empathy, understanding, and effort to bridge different people's perspectives and having empathy for both sides of a potential conflict. It's real that you have a human aspect to how you look at problems. You look at the humans in the situation first, and that is special. It comes across.
I appreciate it. It's real-life examples. When I was a kid, my parents had my older brother and me very young. Both my parents finished college when I was later in elementary school. My mom went on to get a Library degree because she thought, “That's two years. Law school's three.” She eventually went on to get her Law degree, but my dad went on to become the portfolio manager and started when I was little. He worked nights so I saw them work hard. My mother is now a general counsel, but I’ve seen them be at all levels of that corporate ladder.
I’ve been on it. I worked at Kmart and Subway, so I’ve been at all levels of the corporate ladder. I’ve seen some of the best characteristics of people from those that often are least respected when it comes to company policies or things. There are different caste systems, almost. I’ve also worked with senior executives and seen that it's hard and stressful to be responsible for so many people's employment. Oftentimes, it's that stress and fear of doing wrong that leads to behaviors that you aren't treating people right. It's a lack of thinking and doing better. I sometimes do videos on finding your voice. It took me a long time to be able to speak up and not be a lawyer Ashley that’s yes-no, red line, but how you talk to people, get to their perspective, and show them better ways.
I know I’m not always right. My husband will be surprised that I’m admitting this publicly, but I was in some loops of the world. I’ve seen those perspectives and it's easy for executives to think we can take employees for granted and it's this monolith. It's also easy for employees to see managers, leadership, and CEOs are only in it for themselves. There are plenty of examples of that out there, but if you can open people's eyes to work better together, you solve a lot of legal issues but also can have real impacts on people's lives. I believe fervently in that. Sometimes, it's a little pollyannaish. I try not to be, but I get the point of getting people's attention and meeting them where they are.
It's taking me years, which is why I get comments sometimes on social media about wrinkles, Botox, and you're old for TikTok. I’m like, “I’d rather be old, have this experience, and use it to teach others than have 23-year-old Ashley trying to teach the lessons of the world because I did not know what was happening.”
Your in-house career was with several other companies as well, and I know, at some point, you moved to Australia for a little bit. I’m curious about that in terms of your career. Maybe you can also talk about your other in-house roles.
It's interesting because sometimes, people are like, “You jump in roles. Everyone has their story.” If we'd stayed in Atlanta, I probably would've stayed there and I’ve been still in my first in-house role. I loved it and still have great relationships with everyone there, but for us, when I was two and a half years in, I had my second child. It's hard when you don't have family nearby. The realities of that can be challenging when both parents work. We moved back to Louisville and the first job I applied to was at Yum. I worked at KFC, Kentucky Fried Chicken, which is amazing.
I enjoyed that. They had a rotation program, so I went in doing it. I tee security and vendor contracting. Those who will see me now, there's a reason I’m back to employment in HR. That is my bread and butter but it's wonderful to have had that rotation. I learned so much about corporate culture because a lot of what I do about recognition and making people feel valued, I learned from Yum.
It was strong. My husband had always worked from home and so he had the opportunity to go to Australia with his work, which was a corporate executive board at Gartner and lead a team there. Sometimes I say something and then go back into it. We said, “We'll do it.” We then had to figure it out.
There's a lot to it if you go and move abroad. I’d never been to Australia. I didn't know how challenging and how much I thought I’d lose my mind trying to get our car registered there. We got lucky that a colleague of my husband was moving back to the US at that time, so we were able to move into their townhouse and buy their furniture. They had school uniforms for our kids hanging in the closet. We still had a deal. When I moved there, I couldn't stay with KFC. There was maybe a temporary position, but I had to start applying. I also know what that's like. I applied for hundred jobs.
No one believes that you're coming because I was applying from the US. I said, “I couldn't be a lawyer there.” You can't take a bar. You have to take two years of courses. I tried to apply to legal jobs but no bites. I talked to this executive recruiter, and I said, “I was on at Yum as a chief legal officer and chief people officer path. I always had this interest in HR because I’d taken it on as we discussed, but then had that interest.” This executive recruiter said, “It's not like US where you can be more fluid. In Australia, if you come and you tell someone you’re a lawyer but you’re going to do HR, they assume that something is wrong with you.”
Again, this is the second time. You're going to think I’m a real windy. Of course. I’m getting ready to pick up my kids from daycare. I was crying because I’m like, “What have I done with my career?” I’ve moved into the leadership level of KFC. I was cruising along, I had doing well and I left it. Spoiler alert. I was able to rejoin a prior company as they'd spun off a management agreement. I became general counsel and while I was there, I took on HR. I worked for a US company. I started work depending on the time of year. Often, 4:30 in the morning, Tuesday through Saturday.
I got great at making Australian coffee, but then I’d be done at 3:00. I’d go to the park, have champagne with my mom friends, and pick up my kid. Aside from sleep deprivation, I live in these worlds. Again, it opened my eyes up to the business culture there. My husband was there so I’d go and him. I was working from home, but I saw what that could be like and the emphasis on relationships they have in Australia going outside. We were there for a couple of years. It was amazing and I enjoyed it but we were at that inflection point of, “Do you stay or do you go?” Sometimes, the memories pop up and it's so wonderful. With our parents, we wanted to come back and be closer to family. We came back and we've been in Atlanta ever since.
It's interesting what you were saying about how that's perceived. In the US, you would say that the person with a legal degree in-house moving into some business operations is like, “You must be valued.” That it's a dichotomy in Australia. If you think about it, there are different cultures and business cultures around the world. People don't think about that when they think about, “I’m going to be an ex-pat. I’m going to go here and work in these places.”
Since I’ve taken on a lot of global employment law, I’ve learned these things. I remember my husband that was explaining the oath, “If you do a performance review in Australia, you give someone 48 or 72 hours' notice in this specific language and they can bring someone with them.” I said, “You could never do that in the US with workplace violence considerations.”
They're coming from a place of support. We come from a very defensive posture. That was super fascinating to me. Also, Australia, much like the UK can be very classist in that. I remember a friend who works at a large law firm in Australia. She was talking about things and when someone has a resume, they list their high school because there is no law school there. It called university and law school is included in that. It's 4 years as opposed to 7. She said, “You put your high school because if someone hasn't gone to a private high school or selective stream, like a top magnet high school, I wouldn't even interview them.”
When I was outside the US, it's easy. Australia is the best. Everything is better. I never want to go back to the US because life is wonderful and there are oceans. You do also realize there are some benefits. The American Dream isn't easy and isn't equal for everybody but there are more opportunities. Think of how many leaders in Corporate America have gone to no college or college. I did realize that it tends to be a bit more of a monolith in Australia and UK. That is changing. A lot of companies are intentional about that, but I was never aware of that until we were there.
The American Dream is not equal for everybody. However, it still offers more opportunities for leaders to grow and succeed than other countries.
I have some friends who are from there and I’ve heard some of that business-wise as well, not just legal. What you said reminded me of I’ve seen so much from my UK legal friends. They are talking about social mobility and how important that is in their practice. I was thinking, “What are they talking about?
As I’ve seen more and more about it and what you said right now, it clicked. I’m like, “That's what they're talking about. Unless you haven't gone to this perfect place, you're not going to be hired in these other places.” it's the American upbringing that I’m like, “Don't you want some scrappy person? That would be great.”
I agree. It is, and that's exactly the same. It's so interesting. That's a challenge and I’m glad people are cognizant of it. That's one thing. I’m glad that we don't have as much like that. Scrappiness is generally a very positive trait here.
That whole bring yourself up by the bootstraps thing. That's part of how we look at it, which you don't realize until you see that in action when you go, “I guess we do have a different perspective.” That's good that you were able to work that out with a US company because that is a whole other category. I’ve had that from friends from Australia who have come here to work in the US. There's a whole other category of challenges in doing that. Of course, it is nice to come back and be near family, especially with kids.
It has been wonderful. We laughed when we were there. People would come for three weeks at a time. Here, at least 36-hour visits. All my friends and everyone in Australia thought we were nuts with our vacations or things like that. Having that proximity is helpful. I always say, “I wish you could live sliding doors and live two lives,” but you can't. I’ve had that experience and I have this. I’m grateful for each of them and the quilt that I have.
How did you come to where you are now with your own company, consulting, and all of that?
When we were in Australia, we tried to figure out, “Do we want to stay here.” Again, it was the thought of, “Do I want to go and get qualified.” No, not really. I’ve always had this drive to do something entrepreneurial. I actually thought about Manager Method years ago. My initial thought was to have an app where you could have a performance conversation. You'd go and be like, “This is my industry, my role and this is how you do this.” It would generate these scripts for performance conversations because I’ve done that so many times.
I help people have difficult conversations. Difficult meaning talking about something challenging that's uncomfortable that someone doesn't often do. I do it in a compliant yet caring way. I had it in my thought in many things. A couple of years later, I finally made a logo and ordered some hats. There’s no actual action but that's always the easiest thing to do. During COVID, I joined global legal team at McKinsey. It was wonderful, and I enjoyed that. After a year, I became their head of North American HR. It was a huge job but I had this nagging thought of wanting to do something more scalable. I was talking to someone on my team and they'd ask, “Why wouldn't you start this?”
There are a lot of reasons why, but I decided I’m going to do it. I started it, but I have been also working with a prior company that was totally fine with me starting this business. I was going to do both then COVID happened. I was doing legal and HR which was between PPP layoffs and all of that stuff. It took more than my chair of the day.
It also made me reset. I was like, “This time, what am I going to do?” Years ago, in earnest, I started Manager Method, but it was still hard to take that leap. I’d had an anchor client so that helped me to have some revenue. My North Star was, “I want to make scalable tools to help people work better and to help managers because there's not much manager training or it's boring.” I’ve had these conversations so many times and many people ask the same thing. I want to teach some fundamentals. Managers don't need to become experts. That's what HR and legal are for, but to feel more comfortable, say the right thing, and know when to ask for help was my North Star.
Managers don’t need to become experts at law. That’s what HR and legal consultants are for.
At the beginning of 2022, I started TikTok. I’d had TikTok videos with my kids, especially during the pandemic, but I started Manager Method. I had zero followers. I was putting stuff out there and I started to do role-plays. I hadn't talked about this when I was growing up. I went to a wonderful magnet school, duPont Manual High School in Louisville, Kentucky, that had the Youth Performing Arts school as part of it.
I desperately wanted to go for acting, and I didn't. I took the practical path and did Math, Science, and Technology. I’m not doing that now, but I took playwriting classes there. I loved playwriting. As part of playwriting, I started doing these scripts. A lot of it obviously is exaggerations from things like that, but some of them are real conversations that happen every day across tons of companies. Things about bereavement and sickly, but the policy is this. What's pumping at work? What do we have to do? Can't they use the bathroom? All of those things that people think, so I started to do these role plays and tried to give this advice in this point of view format.
I changed it a bit so it brought this creative outlet and everything I’ve done together. I’ve emerged now of doing consulting where I work with organizations to do things like a handbook, but as opposed to the legal handbook, that's redlined. I’m like, “Let's reframe completely how you say this. Let's be more welcoming to your people and also compliant.” I’ll do that kind of consulting. I do training, so I’ll do videos and then give people tools to use with their teams. A lot of it is trying to be scalable and then I do social media.
In TikTok, I was plotting along. In July 2022, I went from 10,000 followers to 110,000 followers. I hit a wave and it works, and you're always at the whim. That brought a lot more of a spotlight to what I was doing. I saw that it resonated with a lot of people in HR and in managers. It's been horrifying yet fun, to know that some of these realities exist. There are a number of us that are trying to work to make it better.
There's something about social media that has leveled the playing field. Everybody talks about in terms of a platform for entrepreneurs. It's a very positive thing because it allows you to get your message out to a lot of people and people respond to your particular content and personality. It's a good connector, but it's a little scary to do, especially for lawyers. There are a few who have done quite well with TikTok, but not many are willing to venture into that.
Were pretty shy about that. It's super interesting that you're using your background and original interest in playwriting to put together what you're doing and give people a flavor of your personality and what you're putting into your work for them. Marrying empathy and taking care of your people with compliance is a common theme and thread knows you've described it.
There's a reason I often talk about HR TikTok and not legal TikTok. Still, people frequently want individual legal advice. I tell people, “There's no legal advice and nobody should be giving that on social media. The lawyers you tend to see building up audiences on TikTok tend to be in the plaintiff's side because that's the audience.” Some of that is helpful as well to educate people on their rights.
It's important that people get it out there like wages. If I talked all day about lawyer TikTok, I would get more of those. I’ll do a video on holiday parties and people will say, “I interviewed and told them I was pregnant and they revoked the offer. What do I do?” You want to jump in and you have to be extremely careful. I generally tell people frequently on time. I’ve talked to TikTok Lives and I’ll say, “I’m not legal advice. If you do have a question, there are some people you can go to and look at their videos but that's still not advice.” Generally, it’s calling your local bar association and asking for referrals.
You want to go to this source. You have to be very careful to be between education and advice and people relying on you. I’m cognizant of that by working with organizations. It's fun hearing someone reaches out and sets up a call from an organization. They’re like, “I saw you on TikTok.” I was like, “It's amazing you saw this on TikTok.” I’ve met a lot of different creators on there. I have become friends with them. It’s the same way you’re going to the playing field.
Chris Williams, former VP of HR at Microsoft, has a TikTok. He and I both commiserate about how we get called old and things like that. You build this and find this connection and it's affirming to find people that are out there trying to make this content. I’ve learned from cooking to everything. I’ve learned it on social media than I thought I would.
I also think about folks like Alex Su and Matt Margolis, who are poking a little fun at the legal profession itself and how we operate. Both of whom have transitioned or were in more service to lawyers, legal tax sales and things like that, which fit no legal advice but securing our professional a little bit. It’s a little tongue-in-cheek humor.
I’ve become pretty good friends with Matt Margolis and Friendly with Alex Su. I love both of what they're doing. Both have such wit and it cracks me up. It is a relief to see it. Of all professions, doctors are probably a close second, but I do think you see more medical professionals and nurses on TikTok. I do think lawyers are still hesitant. I have people reach out sometimes, even on LinkedIn, and be like, “I’d love to do more but I worry about what people will think.” It's not fair. I’ve worked for myself and some places I work. I couldn't but policy does these things now so that helps. Every organization I work with is aware of what I do. Often, they found me because of that. It's how I work.
If someone wants me to come in and rubber stamp. I may have as a first-year associate. It can pay more than my hourly rate just for that but it's been a nice shift for me. It helped me to enjoy what I’m doing, even off camera, by people that get what I’m doing. People will challenge me as well and know that I take and welcome that. I get it completely why lawyers are more hesitant. Now Matt and Alex are more with the technology aspect. I’d love to see a law firm have someone that people don't expect and have some of that personality. Whoever can do that and do it quickly will benefit. I’m sure there'll be some bumps along the way, so we'll see.
Your point is a good one in terms of what your situation is and what is okay. Not only that you're okay with, but what the company is okay with and all of that. It's personally how I look at social media, especially LinkedIn. It's like going to any event, especially during COVID, when you couldn't go to events.
It's an online networking event, and you treat it as a big room in which you go and talk to different people and connect with them. You're not connecting with them by giving them some detailed technical information about something. How would you chat with someone if you went to a bar reception or some other social?
It's the same thing on social media. This concern is necessarily about how you look or the substance, like, “I don't want to be giving legal advice.” It's like, “Would you give legal advice at a cocktail party? Probably not. If you wouldn't be doing it here, what is that concern?” With COVID, it dropped a lot of those barriers to that because you're like, “What's the alternative? I can't go out and meet new people, so how am I going to do this?” I actually think it opened up a lot of things. This show wouldn't have happened.
Judges would not be willing to come on and talk in this way if they hadn't had many Zoom hearings previously. It internationalized my contacts. I know so many people in UK across arrange from new law to traditional law and all different things because of LinkedIn. We were connecting and having discussions over that. It's how you view it. It's a new way of doing the same thing I would if I were in a room going around talking to different people and finding interesting things about them. It’s the same for me.
It's true, and it's also cool because you're using the contacts that you have and putting them in an area that's easy to find and get that knowledge. I remember, at first, I was like, “I’m not driving anymore.” In the past, I remember being at law firms and listening to music during the day. People being like, “Make sure it's down. Be careful to have headphones.” Now, it’s like, “Be productive. Do whatever you want.” Also, having worked at a radio company, we had music on always. That helped having been in-house. Now I frequently will have podcasts on during the day. I’ve found myself listening to them more than ever and it's wonderful to hear those perspectives. As much as I was a huge serial fan when it came out, I dig into that and follow that in the present day.
Having that, there are so many people that have benefited and gotten that knowledge. As you say, showing people real perspective. What’s that like? What do you think about it? Who are you as a person? A lot of what I try to do is truly humanize the workplace and recognizing it. You never know how someone is coming and showing up. People are often showing up at their worst. One thing you can do is you can either make it bearable or terrible. I’m happy to be on the show because I love listening to the other episodes. Hopefully, I’ll encourage others that there are some different very squiggly paths that you can take if you aren't off right narrow.
Always try to humanize the workplace. You never know how someone is coming and showing up.
You have exemplified it. There are a couple of things. I thought some of it was made possible because of COVID and where things were moving in the natural flow online. Something else you said also resonated, which is, “I had this idea, I don't know how many years ago, and it floated around in different permutations and then it ultimately came to fruition when the time was right.” I was able to make that leap in me to make that decision to move forward. That's so true about a lot of creative things. There's a long gestation period sometimes.
I talk about I want to do playwriting and do it desperately. Aside from billing a lot of hours, what was to stop me? I probably have so many notes and things that are script ideas. Some of which have come in Manager Method, but for years, I wanted to write a movie. Since I’d converted to Judaism and I love holiday movies still, I was watching with some of my kids. My daughter said, “There are no movies about Hanukkah.” I was trying to think, “Would that Adam Sandler movie? I don't think that one is appropriate. She was nine. I’m going to write one.” Over the holidays, I started working on it. Has anything happened to that movie script? No, not yet. Watch this space because I still have this completed manuscript.
I was so proud, even with nothing having done, getting that out because so many things in life. I totally agree. I’m going to do it someday and I’m always looking for those silver linings. There's still that Pollyanna piece of me. It was in COVID. I’m here anyway at my house and I’m going to do this. It has made a lot of us do things and take that action that can feel scary. Every step you take, it gets less scary and then gets more scary again and all of that. I have tried to use every silver lining of that to take action and live an intentional life.
Doing a task over and over again can make it less scary. Use every silver lining of that action and live an intentional life.
That's partly what made it the right time. You were willing to take that leap too. I wanted to ask too a little bit about mentoring and mentors that you've had in your career. What role they've played, and also, what the different ways that mentoring could look like? You mentioned early on with the lawyer in the personal injury firm. Sometimes, law students, in particular, were like, “I’m supposed to get a mentor.” What does that mean? What does that look like? How does that work? Giving examples of that can help.
It can seem so daunting for many things, but it's not mentoring. Think about that little action, getting advice from someone and whenever you're meeting someone where they are if you want to talk to somebody or get their thoughts. If you read Tim Ferris, The 4-Hour Workweek, which is the dream for a lot of us. He talks about how he reached out to people. He was surprised that celebrities, CEOs, and all these asked for their advice.
Back then, it was via letter, but ask for some of it, and then how many wrote back? it's not always easy for someone to jump on a call, but you don't reach out to someone and ask, “Will you be my mentor?” It's going to feel awkward on both sides. If you reach out to someone and say, “I’m a law student. This is my situation. I’m interested in this area of law.” I have a very specific question that you're having. Ask for their advice. Give them the opportunity to write you back to a couple of lines in all of that. Over time, you can get that.
Maybe that turns into you talking to that person, but it's the incremental steps. It's the people you work with. When I was interviewing at KFC, my son was two months old. I say, “I was triple spanked at that point in time. I didn't think I was going to fit into my suit. It was like a can of biscuits that’s about to burst.” I was interviewing with a woman named Melanie Boots, who was then second in command of the legal department. She eventually became the chief legal officer. I was interviewing her and she said, “Where do you want to be in five years?” In my mind, I thought, “I’m so beat down. I’m so tired of my second child and my newborn. I’m here and flown in. What am I going to do?”
I said, “I want to get to know this role and I want to stay in this role in things.” She stopped me and said, “This is what’s going on. I like you, and whether you get this job or not, I want to give you advice. When you're interviewing, you do want to project this confidence and optimism. You can always change your mind, but do you want me to think you want my job because if I’m going to move up, I want people to succeed.” You don't have to do it in a way that's like, “I want your job,” but she talked to me about how you can answer that?
It was so powerful at that moment because she had no obligation to do it. She did it in a very caring way. I remembered that and I ended up working with her. She’s incredibly close. I have hardly made a decision. I hadn't gone talked to or texted Melanie about still when I was going to Australia. She's like, “Absolutely no worries. I totally understand.” People like that know they have your back. She's spoken my name in places I was not and put me up. That has been incredibly important to me in a consistent aspect of mentorship, people giving real truth in that caring way and I’ve tried to do that for others.
Sometimes people have this impression is that it's a very long-term relationship. Sometimes it can be with some mentors, but in others, it is the person saying the right thing at the right time, caring about you, and having that input that's a mentoring moment as well.
It’s like my next-door neighbor. She was a lawyer in a large law firm here in Atlanta. She's pivoted careers. She became a guidance counselor in the second chapter of her life. I’m looking at her house and she has no idea. I would probably call her a bit of a mentor. We both have dogs and chat with each other. She has been a source for me, even for the past couple of years since we've been in our home. We constantly talk about things or she'll reach out, “I’m so proud of you for what you're doing.” She's this voice of affirmation. If I go through personal challenges, I’ll talk to her about them and she gets it because she's been in the law.
People don't always have to. Everyone has these challenges. That's why I also think it's important in mentoring. I’ve learned some of the biggest lessons from people below me on the org chart. Be it an assistants or HR generalists that taught me about being more caring to people and not being so transactional in things like termination. Opening your eyes that mentorship can be about learning life lessons from those who would never consider themselves worthy of having a mentee but can teach you some of the most valuable lessons, like things about humanity. You're exactly right in some of those quick moments.
A lot of people, especially when you're in law school, think that you get buried in books or even paralyzed and afraid to crack a book, which is okay too. It sounds silly that having a dog and being forced to go and walk her all the time, you meet people a lot that way. Having some of those conversations with people outside of law school can be some of the most helpful ones. You never know who you'll end up coming across.
I’ll flip it a little bit now to more senior lawyers like those who manage others, partners, and others in firms, for example. What advice would you give folks in those positions in terms of your sweet spot, being empathetic, and thinking about the other person? We don't get a lot of management training as lawyers in law firms, so I wonder if there's any takeaway for folks in that position.
I’ve done some work now working with law firms. Management training can be daunting. Think about basics. What are things back when you were a junior associate that happened? Was it the not knowing what that was like to take time off? Was it having this case and these deadlines and you have something and not knowing how to vocalize that? How to ask for help when you have a draft? What are the things that you do?
I remember when someone told me to print it out and look at it before I give it to someone. It was some of the best advice I’d ever gotten, and I donate to Trees Atlanta every year because of that. Some of that advice are things that helped you in making those shifts. Everything you can do to make associates' lives easier and not harder because, at times, a law firm can feel like a fraternity or sorority, meaning hazing. If you got through it, it made you a tougher person. You were tougher for your clients, so you can make people tough. The mental health challenges in the legal profession are real. If that's not the most profitable thing but you want less litigation and more deals that go well, what are the outcomes that make things better?
How can you do that and have those relationships no matter where you are in your career and thinking about what your style is? If your first instinct, anytime you get a case, is to come in hot to the other side and make their life difficult, make a filing on Christmas Eve if they celebrate all of these things. If it's going to battle, that can have real mental health impacts.
Is that what's serving your client? Taking that step back to think and make a list for yourself of what are the things that stress you out when you're an associate. What things can you do? To be proactive about and not make people come to you but to say to associates this because I guarantee associates generally hang on to every word partners are going to say. If you can think of all of your advice to make their life easier and help them move up, your life will also be easier and your clients will benefit.
Thinking about it in those practical steps is one of the quickest things people can do it right now. Sketch it out and meet with your associate or a couple of associates and say, “Is anybody ever told you this? What are the challenges you're afraid to ask me?” Take those in a very non-defensive way. That's some of the best impacts you can have on associates and this benefit your client.
That's actionable, good concrete advice for people. I try to think about it in terms of that and give people a rubric. Here are the skills that you should have in place by this year, that year, or the next year. If I’m not providing you with the things to give you those skills because I’ve gotten busy with something else, then you can come to me with this rubric.
It’s like, “You told me that I should be developing this. How about opportunities for that?” It gives them permission to come back and check on you and make sure that you're doing basically what you said with your commitment. It's as much a commitment to them as it is their commitment to get those skills.
It’s having that permission because one of the biggest things that hold attorney's back is that fear. It's built into you at the beginning of the law. You're always afraid. If you get an A, you're great and then move on to the next. It's hard to relish those wins, but helping to absolve some of that fear, give those steps, and bring the person along. Often, it's the presentation deck that an associate spent 100 hours on and got no credit for. Call them out and give that credit. You will not look weaker. If you're a partner and you say, “This person helped me put their name in there, have them come to the presentation if you can.”
One of the biggest things that hold attorneys back is fear. It’s hard to relish your wins, making you afraid to move to the next thing.
I understand that doesn't always happen, but shine that light. It doesn't always have to be this way of paying your dues to a way that people feel so beat down. When they get to the point of celebration and partnership, they're too exhausted and jaded to enjoy it. Bringing people along that way, teaching them, and showing them they have things to learn. All first-year associates, in a way, think that they have it all, but quickly they learn, they don't. It’s giving people some of that recognition and bringing them to client meetings. I was at Ogletree Deakins. It’s this labor and employment firm. It's large now, but I always in part because it was that boutique and we had smaller teams. I had client contact off the get-go.
All of my friends graduated. They all seemed to be the first in our class. All of my friends were the very top, so it was hard to do so badly. A lot of them worked in large firms and they never had any client contact. When I came to doing things like go in-house, I wasn't as daunted to talk to people because I’d been doing it ever since I was a summer associate. Those skills can help build people up. Telling them what they need and giving them opportunities proactively are wonderful things to do.
We'll have positive impacts all around with the new lawyers and seasoned lawyers, both, I hope, from this episode. Thanks so much for sharing your journey, professionally and personally. Typically, I close with a few lightning-round questions. You're multi-talented and this might be hard. My first question is, which talent would you most like to have but don’t?
I wish I was better at decorating. During the holidays, I’m off. I’m no Martha Stewart, so I wish I had a better eye for visual things.
That's something you don't have to some degree. You can train it a little bit, but I’m good if I get three options for things like here are three ways to do it. If I have to come up with that visual thing in the first instance, no. Who are some of your favorite writers?
I love Kim Scott, who wrote Radical Candor. James Clear wrote Atomic Habits. It’s a wonderful book. It’s super practical. Helen Wan who wrote The Partner Track. I’ve read that book and I loved it so much. I’m having her experience. That's my fiction ad and the two non-fiction.
That sounds good. I have to say no one else has mentioned any of those books. You're the first one. Who is your hero in real life?
Is this the point where I start to tear up a little bit? I’d saved my mother so you've alluded to this. My mother raised my brother and me. She went to college. She got her Master's in Library degree. She then battled leukemia. I was about 24. It was pretty severe and she came out of that. I wanted to finally go to law school and she's like, “There's no way she became a paralegal.” She did that for a few years and then it eventually went on to law school and became a general counsel in 2021 of her state agency.
She is in her second cancer battle. She's been diagnosed with lung cancer. She's my hero because when she was diagnosed, what she texted me is, “I hope you're okay. We'll get through this.” She was so positive, and her concern was about me, my brother, my dad and my kids. She is my everything. She's a fighter and incredible at what she does. She's the best researcher I’ve ever met in my entire life. She brings this lens of positivity and that's where I’ve always brought my silver lining to any type of great love.
What a special person. First, the positive attitude and then thinking of others first. Now I’m going to tear up, Ashley.
Having those, it's that silver lining. If you go through things, it's helped me to bring a sense of calm to a lot of what I do that's restful because I’ve had that support. My parents taught me to be very present in the moment. When I’m doing something, I enjoy it and I’m happy to have that gift. Now I’m happy to bring on that spirit. My mom is like a million people cheering around, so she'll rock this one too.
You have good support and positive thinking, but still, it's a big challenge. Given the choice of anyone in the world, who would you invite to a dinner party? It could be more than one person. You could have a whole collection of people.
I’d like to have my maternal and paternal grandmothers. My paternal grandmother died when I was a baby, so I didn't know her. y paternal grandmother passed in 2020 at 96 and she was a spit firing and was volunteering up until the day before. The two of them, plus Ruth Bader Ginsburg, because my maternal grandmother was a big fan of Ruth Bader Ginsburg. I got to meet her once in the bathroom at an opera house when I was interning in college. My maternal grandmother could not believe that I did not ask for her autograph in the bathroom for my grandmother. That conversation would have some wine and lots of laughs and some learning. I’d have my mom come into as well. I got to keep my mom.
It's a strong women's dinner. Also, you'd be able to have that introduction to your grandmother. I’ve had that meeting with Supreme Court justices, especially when you're a legal geek. It’s hard. It's hard to speak and do anything. Everyone was like, “Seriously? That's what choked you up?”
When I was at the opera house because we were at lunch and someone said over there, “Madden Justice.” I loved opera that summer. I had not been an opera fan before, so I didn't know who any of these people were. I thought Madden Justice was this famous opera person. Until then, I stopped. I love celebrity things. I don't tend to handle them with grace. I get very excited. I certainly did that day.
I definitely had that. I met Sandra Day O'Connor at a Stanford Alumni Event. I’m like, “Sandra Day O'Connor is by the cheese tray.” She turned around and talked to me and I could not speak whatsoever. Gratefully, I was able to redeem myself. A few years later, one of my friends was doing work with her and she said, “This is your opportunity to redeem your complete moment of inability to talk. I’m having dinner with her. Drop everything and come. If you can get here in two hours, you can have dinner and have this conversation.” I was like, “You bet.”
What did you say? Did you guys have a conversation and all of that?
We had a whole dinner. There were only four of us at dinner. It was neat. It goes to that point of being vulnerable, genuine, and sharing your most mortifying moments because if I hadn't told my friend that, she wouldn't have been like, “Hey.” With that, it came to an opportunity and it was amazing. Last question. What is your motto, if you have one?
Life is too short to be bored or boring. I try to bring that out. That tends to serve me well.
You have that theme in your work and you've certainly shown that in this conversation. Sometimes you can have a motto and you don't follow it, but you definitely exemplify it.
Thank you. I appreciate.
Thank you so much for doing this and for having this conversation. I enjoyed it. You are a special human. You're doing good work and important work for people to have dignity and empathy in the workplace and to have a better quality of life as a result.
Thank you. You as well. I love what you're doing. I’m honored to be part of this and I can't wait to keep listening.
Thank you so much, Ashley.