Episode 156: Kimberly Merrifield
Presiding Judge of the Butte County Superior Court
00:50:55
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Show Notes
Presiding Judge Kimberly Merrifield of the Butte County Superior Court in California, and a former member of the California Judicial Council and leader of the Trial Court Presiding Judges Association for presiding judges throughout the state, shares how her eclectic, well-rounded career (from a court clerk to a varied private law practice after night law school) led her to the bench. She shares some important lessons: be persistent in seeking what you want (she applied several times under different governors before being appointed to the bench), be open to opportunities you had not previously considered, and be aware of the power of bar and community service (including pro bono work) to open doors to new opportunities. This is a must listen episode.
Relevant episode links:
Kimberly Merrifield , Molly Dwyer – Past Episode, Justice Sabrina Shizue McKenna – Past Episode, Christine Durham – Past Episode
About Kimberly Merrifield:
Judge Kimberly Merrifield has been a superior court judge for over 7 years and is currently the Presiding Judge of the Butte County Superior Court. She is also currently the Presiding Judge of the Juvenile Division. Judge Merrifield was previously the Assistant Presiding Judge and the Supervising Judge of the Criminal Division. She is currently handling the juvenile dependency assignment.
Judge Merrifield is also the current Chair of the Trial Court Presiding Judges Advisory Committee (TCPJAC) which provides her with a seat on the Judicial Council. This committee includes all presiding judges from the 58 counties in the State of California.
Judge Merrifield is one of the Vice Presidents of the California Judges’ Association which places her on the Executive Board of CJA. She is also the Board Liaison to the Mental Health Committee and a member of the Juvenile Court Judges of California Committee.Prior to her appointment to the bench, she was a contract attorney for Butte County Counsel handling all dependency appeals for Children’s Services Division; some trial work for Children’s Services Division; represented the Public Guardian/Public Administrator and handled capacity hearings for Behavioral Health. In addition, she was court appointed to represent minors in high-conflict family law matters and represented adopting parents in adoption cases filed all over the State of California.
Judge Merrifield graduated from Cal Northern School of Law in Chico, California with a juris doctorate degree in 1994. She graduated from California State University, Chico with a bachelor’s degree in Political Science in 1990.
Transcript
I'm very pleased to have joined us yet another presiding judge of the trial courts in California, which is amazing at this point, Kimberly Merrifield, who is the presiding judge of Butte County in California. Welcome.
Thank you. I’m very happy to be here.
Thank you so much for being a part of this, especially a part of the historic capturing of how many women presiding judges in our trial courts in California have been chosen for that position by their colleagues in California in 2023 and next. It's pretty neat to see.
It's quite an honor. I am happy to see that as well.
Typically, I'll ask the same question that I ask others when we start. Why the law? How did you decide to become a lawyer or go to law school? Was it something you thought about for a while or it just came to you?
It is something that I had thought about for a while. When I was fairly young, my parents were divorced and my mother was working for a law firm in Sacramento. She was a secretary. That's what they would call it at that time when the law firm she worked at did not allow women to wear pants. They did later on. I was very interested in what she did. I said, “I want to do that. I want to be a legal secretary when I get older.” She said, “No. You want to be a lawyer.” I said, “Okay.”
I was a Political Science major as an undergrad. At the school I went to, which is where I live, Chico State, they have internships and a community legal information center. I continued. I did not plan to go to law school in Chico but I did. There is a night school. It's the only law school North of Sacramento. I ended up there and was very happy. I figured out a good education and passed the bar on the first try. That was my path. I was one of those lucky people that identified that and stayed on that path.
Sometimes you can have an inkling like that early on but then you find out, “It's not a good fit. It wasn't what I thought it was going to be.” It's nice when it turns out that your first instinct or idea that works out is a good match.
I was very happy that I put in all that time and energy and it worked out.
Part of that, as we explore in this show too, is there are so many different ways to be a lawyer. There are so many different things you can do with your Law degree. If one way isn't the way for you, there are a lot of other avenues you can pursue so that's good. You went to night school. What were you doing most of the day?
This is what I will always tell people. Keep an open mind and accept opportunities that come your way. While I was attending Chico State, I had a friend who had an internship at our municipal court in Chico. This is prior to consolidation. After he was done with his internship, I started interning there. I got to know the judges, administrators, and clerks that were there.
Keep an open mind and accept opportunities that come your way.
Following my graduation, before I started law school, that summer between, I got called by the administrator and she said, “Do you want to come work as a court clerk?” I went to work. I worked as a clerk during the day and went to law school at night. It is technically the court that I'm a judge at. There are some of the clerks that I worked with that are still here. One retired in 2022. I’m trying to think if there is anyone still here. That was what I did during the days. It was a great fit because I got to be in the courtroom during the day and learn more about it at night.
What an interesting mix of experiences, especially in administering the court. You have so many different perspectives. Some of the presiding judges I've spoken to have said it was very valuable to have a broad substantive experience, both as a judge and as a lawyer, having adjudicated cases in a variety of say family law, probate, and things like that so that when you become a presiding judge, you have a much more nuanced view of every aspect of the court. This is a whole other aspect of the court to have a background in.
I can relate to the clerks. I am very protective of them. I always try to make decisions that are helpful for them and not create more work. That's usually one of my first questions when I'm asked to approve something. “Tell me how this affects our operations.”
I would think you could spot some things in that regard much easier than someone who hadn't done that role previously too. You might think about it but you're like, “Maybe there's an issue here. There's a way we can make that more efficient, not as an extra burden for the clerks.” The other thing is Molly Dwyer is the clerk of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. In the federal courts, the official clerk of the court often is a lawyer or has legal training.
If anyone's interested in that and reading this episode, they should read Molly's episode about what that looks like to be the clerk of a federal court. That is so amazing. You're right. Be open to different opportunities. That's neat that you had met people and worked with people who would suggest that but then be open-minded to it. You could have said, “I'm going to law school and be a lawyer.” This is a unique opportunity.
It as a very good opportunity. At that time being a municipal court, all of the criminal cases that started in Chico, the prelims would be there. I got to know all of the DAs or Defense Attorneys. Some of them I still work with. I’ve known them for many years. We're a small community. That's part of it but knowing them at different levels has been very helpful for collaboration and cooperation.
I put that in the category of things. You never know how all of these various experiences that you have in your professional career are going to be the perfect match for the job down the line. One of those seems to be this more prismatic view of the court system when you're a judge and a presiding judge in particular. That's a combination of experiences that few people would have.
There's that level of trust that comes from that because they've seen you in the different roles for a long time and probably more sense of candor and ability to collaborate and bring people to consensus, which you need to do in your role. That's neat. Since you'd been in the courtroom and then graduated law school, did you say automatically, “I'm going to be a litigator or a trial lawyer?”
Yes, I did. I always wanted to be in the courtroom. I've always enjoyed it. I'd had my first child. I was pregnant with him when I took the bar. He was with us when I found out I passed. I didn't jump right back. I left the court and took a little time but there are things to think about. One of my classmates went to work for legal services in Northern California. That's where she was working. I said, “I'd love to volunteer there and do whatever.” I didn't have a lot of time because I had a very young child but I gave some time and did a little bit of work for them.
During that time, I met an attorney. His name was Rob Glassman. He was a family law attorney in town, fairly well known, and one that many people used. He was a big supporter of legal services. I met him at a family law hearing that I had attended with my friend. He said, “I'm been thinking about getting an associate. Why don't you come down and meet with me next week?” I said, “Sure.”
My volunteering at legal services leads me to the next step in my career. I met with him. I wanted to ease in so he was very flexible with my schedule. I started working three full days a week. It was a great match and I worked for him until he was appointed to the Butte County bench. When he was appointed, as part of his firm or practice, he had a lot of contracts with our county council's office.
Our county council contracts a lot of the trial work, like public guardian and public administrator work, which involves mental health, conservatorships, and also children's services. When the government had to remove children, I did all of their appellate work. I helped out with those contracts while I worked for him. When he went to the bench, I went out on my own with those contracts.
I also was primarily the attorney appointed for children and high-conflict family law cases. We're deployed in minor’s counsels and those types of cases. I also did private adoptions. Those contracts and all of that kept me pretty busy. Someone might ask, “Why didn't you go into criminal law?” There was a reason for that.
I am married to a retired law enforcement officer. He worked at the Chico Police Department for 30 years. We had a pretty frank conversation at the beginning of my career that I could have gone to work at the DA's office or be a public defender. It might be a little awkward but we decided that it would probably be best for us if I stayed out of that area. I was fine with that. I didn't have a burning desire to handle criminal law.
I had worked at the court doing criminal cases. I was familiar with the code sections. I knew the lingo. I thought it might be a better small community so I decided to keep that separate but I did pretty much everything else. I didn't do a lot of civil but I did a lot of the other stuff. The bulk of my career was handling those types of cases, which I loved. I did something different all the time. I wasn't stuck.
It sounds like it's always interesting because there are always different facets to it.
One thing that a small community can bring you is the ability to have that. We don't have as many attorneys may be to do all of those areas. I enjoyed those types of areas. It also led me to do a little bit of work for the court. I was appointed by the court. One of the other things left over from legal services was we do orders after hearing for family law pro per litigants. You go to court and might have filed for a domestic violence restraining order or custody order. It's the party's requirement to submit the orders.
There was a lot of time spent in our county that they weren't correct or accurate. The program is still there. I supervised it for quite some time. My friend from law school that worked for legal services started it. I took over for her and did it for quite a few years. That was coming to court once a week, supervising some interns, or creating them myself. You sit in court, take notes, and make sure people can walk out with enforceable orders in hand, which is not always doable for litigants.
That's such a great program. That is consistent with a lot of the self-help clinics and other programs that exist in different areas of the court and other legal services. It's a very practical aid because most people are like, “I'm supposed to do an order. What does that look like? What is it supposed to say?”
We started that prior to even any self-help centers. All we had was a family law facilitator. We do have a pretty robust self-help center who has taken over that program but I ran that for a long time. I got to know the judges that were doing family. They got to know me. It's doing some assistance and work for the court.
That's helpful. I like that program because it did proceed with all of the similar and expanded ones that have followed. How can we most immediately help people in a tangible way and also help the court? This adds a lot of extra time and back and forth on these orders. That's a very cool program. You have such an interesting career. Can I say that?
I love a certain amount of serendipity but also this willingness to follow the opportunities as they come and where they come from. The opportunities come from you giving first. You're donating your time to legal services. It's such a great message and microcosm of a message for people. Get out there, see what you enjoy, and see how you can give back. It comes back to you eventually.
I haven't always thought of it that way but that's very true.
I was thinking to myself, did you ever have to formally apply for a job at all until you got to the gen ship? Was that your first application?
Yes, it was.
Tell me about that. You’re the mentor and Founder of the firm that you worked for and you joined the bench. Did that get you to start to think about joining the bench yourself or did you think about it before then?
No. This is a big message that I want to put out there. I have no idea why. I never thought of it for myself but I did not. I feel like there must have been some part of me that thought, “I didn't go to a well-known big law school.” We put judges in this different category. It wasn't until one of those family law judges that I worked with and whom I very much respect.
He's retired but I do keep in touch with him. He was one of those judges that you always want to be prepared in front of. I worked with him doing the orders because he was doing family. One day, while I was going in to do the orders, one of the clerks said, “The judge wants to talk to you back in his office this morning.” My first thought is panic. It’s like being called to the principal's office.
“What did I do wrong?” You're going through your mind like, “What could it be?”
I went back there. I did a lot of minor’s counsel with him. In addition, he said, “You'd make a great judge. You should apply. I will write a letter of recommendation for you. I will support you. You should do this.” I was wowed. He was the kind of judge where if he suggested you do something, you probably should do it.
With your preface, I was thinking that. It was like a judicial order. You're like, “Yes.”
I will also be very frank about my process. That was eight years prior to my being appointed. I had put in my application. I was younger. That's not unusual but I would have probably been on the younger side. I originally applied under Governor Schwarzenegger. I went through all of the process. I went through Jenny. I had a meeting with the appointment secretary, which at the time was Sharon Majors-Lewis. It was a wonderful interview. I got passed over a couple of times.
I didn't have any complaints. I understood why the people that got appointed may have been appointed. If there's something that you feel passionately and strongly about that, you don't necessarily give up. When the governor's change, your application stays with the governor's office, unless you ask for it to be removed and you don't want to be considered. When they change, a new application must come.
If there is something you feel passionately about, don’t give up.
I had a little experience so when Governor Brown was elected, I went back to my mentor, the one who had suggested, and said, “I'm going to apply again.” He said, “You are?” He was a little surprised because he thought maybe I’m a disappointment or something along those lines. He said, “I'll write you a letter and do the support,” so I did.
Vacancies come up when they come up. We had a few here and there but there were some vacancies so I went ahead and put my application in. It took some time. I went through the Jenny process again. I've done all of it twice and then I got passed over one other time. The fourth time was the charm for me. Here's the other thing. Be open to change. By that time, I was changing my practice.
I had done minor’s counsel for fifteen years and that's a lot of years to be with high-conflict families. Another opportunity came up for me, doing a part of the trial work for children's services so for the department in those cases. I'd done their appellate work for so long. I've argued in front of the third area 7 or 8 times that I feel strongly about.
They were going to add halftime in addition to the full-time, whose attorney I worked with a lot. They offered it to me. I didn't have to apply for it. You don't have to. It's legal services so they approached me and I said, “Yeah, that'd be great.” I'm going to start cutting back on my family law minor’s counsel cases, starting to transition out of that, and getting new lawyers involved in doing that.
I was at a place too where I was like, “If this doesn't work for me, that's okay too. I'm liking what I'm doing. I'm changing shifts.” I had that job for 2 months and then 2.5 or 3 months after that, I got the phone call to go meet with the governor's secretary. I wasn't even in that job for six months but that's okay. It turned out. That's a very brief story of my path from the beginning to where I'm at.
That's important that you started to be frank about the process, even when you have the support of someone like that and someone who sees that in you. For various reasons, it can be multiple applications many years before the appointment happens. I'm glad you're frank about that because it's important to say that and for people to know that that can happen.
I interviewed Justice McKenna, who's on the Hawaii Supreme Court. She had a very similar experience. She's like, “I kept applying. I knew I could do something good in this role.” It was eight times that she had applied for various judicial positions. She kept showing up and reapplying. Some people immediately get appointed. For others, it doesn't happen that way but it's still gratifying when it does happen. It allows you to clarify for yourself. In your case, you were moving forward. You're like, “Yes, I've put my name out there but I got to live my life and make decisions.” You were starting to find different ways to continue to challenge yourself and then the opportunity comes.
That's why I said that you always have to be open to changing your path and direction if you have to. It's not easy. We all have egos. If there is a sense of rejection, sure, but you have to set that aside because you know that there are other people that are qualified. You keep doing yourself, be yourself, and be true to whatever you're doing. That's always been my message as well too.
If it is something that you want, then you don't necessarily give up on it either. I could have gotten mad, bitter, or said, “Forget them.” That wasn't my attitude and never has been. I would encourage people that if you feel passionate about something, you can keep at it. It doesn't mean you shouldn't do other things. You should be open to all of those other opportunities that might come your way because you don't know what the next one is after that.
It is the subtle difference between being persistent and pursuing the path that you're interested in but being open to other things along the way and being flexible in how you can contribute. Sometimes, it isn't the time for whatever reason, whatever the governor's looking for, or whatever the makeup of the bench is. There are so many things. It is hard, especially the judicial selection process. You're like, “I'm going to be me but who knows in the whole panoply of things what the governor is looking for at a particular point in time?” You do your best and then see what happens.
It's so funny you mentioned that. I was talking with one of my colleagues. He was appointed before me but he was saying he had his application in. I didn't know him. I knew his name because everybody knows whose names are in. We're colleagues and we laugh about it. He was passed over as many times as I was because he applied earlier than me but I came on. Our swearing dates are exactly two years apart but we were talking about how despite the pass overs, we feel that we came in at the right time for the court and personally.
When I was appointed, my youngest had just graduated from high school, three months before and was heading off to college. It was already hard enough being a working attorney mom but I had a little more flexibility with my schedule than I do now. That would have probably been a little more difficult. I wouldn't have had a lot of those other experiences either. Both professionally for the court and personally, the timing worked out that way. People should keep that in mind too, if they get passed over the first time, maybe even the second.
It’s like, “I can bring so much more to the position because of the other experiences I've had. I would think even completing a new application.” With the change in governors, over time, you would say, “Even the initial application I did, I've grown some of my experiences. Some of my answers to those questions might be different because I've had all these other experiences since.”
Maybe brutal is not the right word.
At the time, you probably feel it's brutal.
It’s the whole Jenny process and judicial nomination and evaluation where people can say things about you negatively that are confidential. Some of that information helped me a lot in growing like, “There are some people out there that think this. That's interesting.” It makes you look at yourself and reevaluate yourself. In a professional way, it makes you better.
I was talking to someone who was going through the Jenny process and was having that negative. I said, “Look at it as a learning experience and a way to make yourself better.” If you can take what could be negatives and try to turn them in a way that helps you, that's a good way to cope and handle those kinds of situations.
That's a unique way of thinking about it. It's like a 360-degree evaluation if you were in a corporate setting or something. You get these insights. You're like, “I never would have thought that someone could perceive that as being this but I'll take that into consideration and maybe rethink how I approach certain things.” That is a good positive spin on that whole process.
It’s anybody, whether they're going through that kind of evaluation or an evaluation from your employer. Our innate human reaction is defensiveness. I get that because your first reaction is probably, “I can't believe that.” Take a pause and go, “Somebody has that perception. How do I use that to my advantage and not try to be as defensive about what the criticism might be?”
The way you're describing it, along the way, you’re having some experience with judicial demeanor and temperament in challenging situations. There's also that learning experience through it.
That is part of what they will do in the vetting process. It’s not just what is the criticism but how you handle it and respond to it makes a big difference.
When getting criticism, it is all about how you handle and respond to it.
That was exciting to join the bench. Tell me about that. It is distinct being a member of the court and then being a presiding judge. Do you have a calendar or do you not have one while you're a PJ?
I have a calendar. Our court is made up of 11 judges and 2 commissioners. We do have a vacancy so we are trying to mainly internally cover another assignment. I know my colleagues around the state. We are on a committee together. That's how I know Judge Hernandez and Judge Jessner. I'm the Chair of that committee and we can talk a little bit more about that if you'd like. It has been also a great experience and another learning thing for me.
I handle dependency. It’s the area that I worked in for quite a while. When I first started, I was on a misdemeanor assignment. I moved on to felonies. During my felony time, I was named the supervising judge of the criminal division. Subsequent to that, I was elected as assistant presiding judge and then presiding judge. I'm finishing that up. My term will end at the end of 2023.
Our system, though, gives me one more year as an assistant presiding judge. It helped us with continuity. As an assistant presiding judge, 2 years is presiding, and then 1 year is outgoing. For the new incoming presiding judge, I will be his APJ. He is my current APJ. It bounces along that way. It is technically a four-year commitment but for a court our size, it's helpful, especially with the continuity parts.
That helps with continuity and for him to be able to say, “What happened with this?”
It's been a good fit for us. I agree with it. It has been very helpful for us. I've enjoyed it. There can be a lot of stress involved. I look at my colleague who had it before me during the pandemic and I was the APJ in 2021. There was a lot going on there. You never know what's coming your way.
That was a shock to the system for the courts and figuring out how to continue to operate in that setting and allow people to bring their disputes to be resolved, which is important to maintaining a civil society and having them work out. You're elected by your colleagues to the presiding judge position. It's amazing that you're also doing calendar but I can understand why, given your court and the vacancy in particular. Can you say a little bit about what kinds of things the presiding judge does or that you do? It varies a little bit depending on the court.
There are responsibilities. Some of our responsibilities and duties are spelled out in the California Rules of Court. It's as detailed as I am responsible for ensuring that judges are coming to work. I have to monitor absences and make sure everyone's signing their affidavit so they don't have something under submission for more than 90 days. Judges have education requirements that they're required to do.
You're technically on the hook. The buck stops with you so you have to know what everyone's doing all the time. One of the first things that I do is pull up. We have a weekly calendar that coverage of who's doing what, who's on trial, who's on vacation, and who's got a medical day. It's keeping track of a lot of that. There's a staff that assists with that.
One of the other jobs is assignments, assigning judges to certain areas and supervising who's going to be the supervisor of civil, family, and criminal, and then working with the CEO. I talked to him daily. He's telling me what's happening on the administrative side. I get updates on all kinds of things from HR, whether people are leaving, coming, or hirings. A lot of stuff comes at you from all different areas. It's interesting and truly is an honor.
I do look at serving our community well and supporting our judges so that they can do the difficult job that they have. That's how I look at it. We do have Board of Judges meetings. They're not always monthly. They're at least usually every other month. We call a meeting when we have to do certain things and give updates. We're a smaller bench. We have two locations. I'm in one location. I do try to stop by and see the judges in the other location to check in and say, “How are things going?” A big part of it is all of that.
It is interesting when you said there's also the CEO of the court. I think about the presiding judge as having a CEO role from the judicial side in terms of managing the board.
Correct, but working with the CEO is very important, having that good relationship, and being able to be honest. We don't always agree on things and when we don't, we have a good conversation and work it out. Nobody holds a grudge. Honesty and candor are big parts of it. That's not always an easy thing to do. Sometimes you also have to have what we call difficult conversations with your colleagues.
You have heard that some things come up in court, there's a complaint, or all kinds of things. Sometimes, you have to go have a conversation with them as well. That's where the relationships are important. That's why you stop by and talk to people. If your only conversation with a colleague is a difficult one, that's probably not going to go very well. Whereas if you have an established relationship, it can be much easier for both parties.
No one's going to think, “If she's darkening my door, there's something wrong. It’s not good.” As opposed to, “We have conversations anyway. It could be normal.” Judge Clark mentioned to me too your role statewide. Maybe you can talk a little bit about the leadership role.
Through Judicial Council, there is what's called the Trial Court Presiding Judges Advisory Committee. We call it TCPJAC for short. It takes a long time to figure that one out. That is made up of all of the PJs. APJs are allowed to be on that committee and often are. That's a statewide committee. It's very important to the Judicial Council and Chief Justice to have that voice from the trial court level and who it goes through.
We do have statewide meetings. We have what we call statewide business meetings and two executive committee meetings. We have four a year where we get together, usually in the Sacramento area. We talk about budget legislation. There are a lot of very active judges who pay attention to legislation that is pending that might affect the courts. They have the ability to say, “That's a good idea,” or, “Did you think about this?”
There is what's called the Chair of that committee. That Chair position gives you a place on the Judicial Council for a year. It's a year-long commitment as Chair. There's also a Vice-Chair. Ever since I became a judge, I'm also on the California Judges Association Executive Board. I'm one of the vice presidents in 2023. I've always enjoyed the statewide conferences, getting to know judges in other counties, learning what they do, and being involved with the California Judges Association.
When I became APJ and then was on that, when the position of Vice-Chair came up, I thought, “I might as well put in for that.” The Chair at the time is Ted Zayner. He's a Santa Clara judge. He was the prior PJ. He'd reached out to me. Even though I was already planning on applying, he said, “I want you to apply for Vice-Chair. I would love to work with you.”
We had been on the California Judges Executive Board together. We're on there for a year. He had dropped off on staggered terms but that's how I knew him. I knew him from me, being open to being involved. I was put in for Vice-Chair. Generally, the Vice-Chair becomes the next Chair. It's not required. It happened that way.
I found myself sitting on the Judicial Council thinking, “How did I get here?” Most of the time, people are like, “Where's Butte County?” I have enjoyed my time. That's coming to an end in September 2023, both my time on the board and Judicial Council. I will stay active statewide. There are advisory committees and other things I plan on being active in. It's been a lot in 2022 with travel.
It’s all of that at the same time.
It's been great. I will miss the people but I am looking forward to being able to concentrate again back at home as I call it and doing my job here as well. I have very supportive colleagues that appreciate the statewide involvement. That's very helpful also because many of them have to cover for me.
It's helpful to the trial judges throughout the state but also in your county as well to have that involvement. You'd have a good sense of what challenges courts are facing statewide, getting good ideas from ways that they're facing them, and then being able to speak in a more united voice about the challenges or even legislation.
I remember Christine Durham, who was the first interviewee for this show. She was the first woman judge in Utah and then the Chief Justice of the Utah Supreme Court. She talked about how we need to get organized. We'd go to the legislature. One judge would say this, the next judge would say that, and the legislature would be like, “What's the real story?” It's like two different parts of the elephant. “We need to be coordinated, understand everything that's going on, and present a unified voice.” It sounds like a part of the value of this role is being able to do that.
The second thing that I was thinking of when you were talking about this was one of the things that Chris also mentioned. When they started the National Association of Women Judges, they were so happy to find each other because there weren't that many women judge in any one location. They cut their teeth on leadership experience through the National Association of Women Judges. They were able to bring that back to their courthouses and ultimately become PJs or assistant PJs. That's how that led to that leadership opportunities.
Your point about serving in those various ways gives you further experience that you can bring to your role in your court as well but there's a good analogy there for newer lawyers in terms of bar service, community service, leadership, and all of those things outside your particular firm or location. You get to meet a wider variety of people. That's exciting but also getting those leadership roles can help you bring back that experience to your home court.
I want to say that because sometimes, people, especially newer lawyers, say, “I have all these hours to bill. Why would I do the bar things?” It's so rewarding. Trying to quantify and explain that can be hard sometimes but I thought with your experience, you're demonstrating that well in terms of its value, getting that broader information, being able to make better decisions, and having better leadership at home too.
It may sound like I sit here and go, “Oh, yeah,” but when I decided to do the Vice-Chair and the Chair, I'm sharing meetings of all of the PJs in the state of California that do not pass, which is a huge honor. My initial thought could have been or maybe had been, “That sounds like a lot. Can I do that?” Have that confidence in yourself like, “I can make it work. I know I can do that.”
Even though it sounds like a big overwhelming position, job, and responsibility, be willing to get out of your comfort zone a little bit. It would be easy for me to have said, “No. I'll go to the meetings, sit there, and participate that way.” Being willing to step up and do it in a leadership position is what we need. People might think initially, “I can't do that. I'm not qualified to do that.” Why not?
That reminds me of you saying having the judge suggests that you consider even applying to be a judge. Sometimes, you don't think of that yourself. It's helpful to have someone suggest that to you because it can be hard to decide, “That's perfect. I'll go for that.” That's one of the reasons that I started doing this show too. What if somebody doesn't come to you particularly but you hear a story of one of the guests on the show and say, “That sounds like my experience or that's something I might be interested in?” Maybe you wouldn't have thought of that until the light goes on. You’ll maybe encourage more people to go outside their comfort zone and go for things.
Even when it sounds scary.
It often sounds scary. Don't think about that. Just jump. If you think too much, you're not going to do it. That's most of the time. Sometimes, it's good not to know. You can maybe think of some of the challenges but if you don't know the full extent of them, that's better because you're like, “If I would have known it would have taken so long to get this particular task done, I never would have done it.”
It's good to have that bliss about it, not knowing all of the details and taking the opportunity, which is such a great story from your career of taking the opportunities. Being offered those means that you're open to them. People don't offer things unless you've shown openness. That's so hard, especially for lawyers because we're so trained in a certain path and all of that to think of going one way and not being open to that.
I am subject to that at times. It's a good and important message that you're sharing about that. Also, the backgrounds and experiences of judges. There's such an interest in a variety and having a variety of backgrounds that even if you think you have an image in your mind of the exact things that you need to do to become a judge, that may not be true. It may not have ever been true but that's what we think.
The emphasis has been on diversity. People talk about race and gender but it's more than that. It's experience and location. It could be geography or areas of law. That is what the emphasis has been. You don't know maybe what you might have to bring but if it's something you think you want to do or are passionate about, then do that.
It’s a great job [being a judge] but there is a lot. It’s a serious job. You're making decisions that affect people's lives forever at times. The heaviness of that, you need to think about and be sure that’s something you think you can handle.
Since I have become appointed, there is a statewide Judicial Mentor Program. Put a little plug-in for that. If you've already put your application in and they don't want you to join it, it is a way to hook up people that are interested in the job with the person that's doing the job. You can ask those questions, “What's the hardest part? What can I expect?”
I'll be honest. Even though I worked with so many judges, had worked at the court, worked as a clerk, and all of the other things, I still was surprised by some of the aspects that the job provides, the things that you have to do, the training you go through, and all of that. Not in a negative way but it has been mysterious before. There are ways to gauge whether you think it's something that you want to do.
It's a great job but there is a lot. It's a serious job. You're making decisions that affect people's lives forever at times. The heaviness of that, you need to think about and be sure that's something you think you can handle. There are ways for people can explore. I would encourage them to because we do want a diverse group of people that come from all different backgrounds to be making these decisions.
Judicial Mentor Program is a great way to have that opportunity to ask those questions. It also is a good reminder that it's helpful to ask those questions. You might have an image of what it is to be in that role but you don't know. You want to know, “Is this something I would enjoy on a day-to-day basis? What is it like?” It's helpful to be able to have someone to ask those questions.
That's been a great positive addition to our state.
You might have a relationship through your work in the courts like you did with different judges so you could ask those questions and who would suggest that you apply but you might not. Providing a venue for that to happen, if it doesn't already happen naturally, is good.
We want to open that pool up. We don't want just the people that happen to have relationships or be involved. We want it to be open to everyone because they could bring something positive and wonderful to our system.
It's so good to have the different substantive areas and different types of practices coming to the bench too. There's such a variety of kinds of cases you could be deciding or working on and many different assignments you could have throughout your career. It's good to be well-rounded. Thank you so much for joining and talking about your experiences. I love your takeaways and stories about being open to opportunities, being persistent, and all of that. The opportunities that come from service are an important takeaway that I get from your discussion as well.
Thank you. It's a pleasure.
I appreciate it. Typically, I end with a few lightning-round questions. I'll ask you a couple of them. The first one is, which talent would you most like to have but do not?
I'm going to say probably singing. You do not want me to sing anything. I wouldn't even want it for any professional reasons. It sounds better if you're singing along.
If you're singing along in the car, you want to carry the tune forward for the team.
They’re very good singers. I'm not jealous but I admire that. That's a great talent.
Who is your hero in real life?
I'm going to go with a famous person and there are people in my personal life that could probably fall in there too. I do have items of her around me and that's Ruth Bader Ginsburg. I was fascinated with her story, learning about what she had to face going to law school and being a mom during those times. I do admire the persistence that she held when I learned more about her story.
I watched the movie made about her life and also the documentary about her. It shows that she's bright and all of those. She was a mom, a grandma, and a spouse. That's what comes to mind but that's because I do have a bobblehead of hers and her pocketbook of wisdom sitting right here, staring at me so if I didn't bring her up, that might not be a good idea.
She does have that whole pop culture aspect or she's become part of the culture in a way that's unusual for Supreme Court justices as well.
In my personal life, it would be my grandmother who is no longer with us and unfortunately, it was around when I applied but had passed away before I was appointed. She was a go-getter. She was one of the early female executives for the prudential. She was always a working woman in a time when there weren't very many. She was always very supportive of anything and everything that I ever did. She would probably be my personal hero.
That's pretty neat to have that support in your family too. It's very cool. Strong women. Given the choice of anyone in the world, who would you invite to a dinner party? They could be with us or not with us. It could be more than one person too if you can't decide.
I'm thinking of it so probably my grandmother. I'd love to have one more meal with her.
Here’s the last question. What is your motto if you have one?
It's probably what we've talked about. Be open to opportunity. I tell my kids that all the time.
It's an important and good message, especially for lawyers or law students who can get so focused, which is good because it helps you accomplish things but maybe there are other things you can accomplish too.
Those connections can open other doors. That's what happened to me.
It’s in a very organic way. Thank you so much for joining the show, Judge, and for sharing your journey and some good tips.
Thank you. It was a pleasure to be here.