Wendy Wood
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Show Notes
Judge Wendy Wood of the Arkansas Court of Appeals shares her journey from professional basketball player to private practice, research attorney on the appellate court where she now sits, and, of course, judge. Along the way, she shares how the discipline and teamwork of basketball influenced her career and emphasizes the importance of moving beyond your fears to accomplish your dreams.
Relevant episode links:
Judge Wendy Wood, Amy Stewart – Past Episode
About Judge Wendy Wood:
On May 24, 2022, the Arkansas voters of Pulaski, Saline, and Perry Counties elected Wendy Scholtens Wood to the Court of Appeals, and she took office on January 1, 2023.
Wendy grew up in Fort Smith, Arkansas. She earned a basketball scholarship to Vanderbilt University. There she was a First Team All-American, and the school’s first woman to have her jersey retired. After graduating college in 1991 with a B.A. in Economics, Wendy played professionally in Japan. She has been inducted in four Sports Halls of Fame: Tennessee (1999); Arkansas (2004); Vanderbilt University (2009); and Fort Smith Southside High School (2013).
Upon returning from Japan, Wendy attended law school at the Bowen School of Law at the University of Arkansas at Little Rock. She graduated in 1996, with honors, and worked as a trial lawyer for a decade at the Barber Law Firm. From 2000 to 2006, Wendy served on the Arkansas Supreme Court Continuing Legal Education Committee, which she chaired in 2006. Following private practice, Wendy served for sixteen years as a law clerk to Judge Larry Vaught on the Court of Appeals. In 2022, Governor Asa Hutchinson appointed Wendy to serve as a Special Justice on the Arkansas Supreme Court. She is a member of the Pulaski County and Arkansas Bar Associations. Presently, she serves as the chairperson of the Arkansas Judicial Council’s Membership and Memorial Committee.
Transcript
Introduction
I'm pleased to welcome to the show, Judge Wendy Wood from the Arkansas Court of Appeals. Welcome, Judge Wood.
Thank you, MC. It's a pleasure to be here.
I appreciate your joining, and I think it's wonderful. Some of your colleagues have also been on the show to have a full set of experiences of women on the bench in your Court of Appeal, but you have some unique experiences, which we'll get to prior to law practice. Actually, in terms of basketball experience, my friend Amy Stewart is a big trial lawyer in Texas.
Journey To Law
She was on the show earlier, and she believes the teamwork and the things that she learned from playing basketball competitively were integral to her career. I'm interested to hear your stories about that, too. Before we dive back into that, I want to know first what drew you to the law and what caused you to go to law school and want to become a lawyer.
From a very early age, I had instilled in me the importance of the justice system. I think that's because my dad is a former FBI agent. He would come home when I was young and share stories with us regularly. They would sometimes involve investigations he was working on, an arrest that he made that day or a stakeout that he was on. I always just found that interesting, as you can imagine, as a child, hearing your dad tell these stories.
A lot of his stories revolved around court because he would have the opportunity to testify on behalf of the state when they would arrest and prosecute one of these criminals. My dad said he was a “Crime Crusher. When he would get into court, he would come home and tell us about those stories. He would talk about the US attorney who was working with him and preparing his testimony.
He would talk about the defense attorney and the defendants themselves. He would talk a lot about the judge, about the process, and the experience. I think that's where it first settled in with me, my interest in the law and the justice system. When I think now, looking back, I'm almost positive that it has to be where it came from because I have a younger brother, and he is also a lawyer. I suspect he probably would say the same thing. I credit my dad for introducing me to the law.
There are some stories of women lawyers and judges with fathers who came home and were the lawyers themselves talking about the trials, but that's a unique perspective because you have the investigation end and then you have the whole drama, the story of the trial itself, and the various people involved. That's a pretty 360-degree view of the legal system.
It was because he wasn't a lawyer. His comments about the lawyers, their style, their techniques, and their presence before the jury. The judge's style and techniques. He was well aware of all of that. It was just reporting that objectively. That all just settled in and resonated with me.
That's interesting. Did you think you wanted to be a trial lawyer after that? Do you have a particular idea of what you want to be as a lawyer?
It's funny you say that. No, I think that I knew I wanted to go to law school, but I wasn't sure where that would take me. My first experience with knowing anything about the law was the criminal prosecution and defense arena but when I got to law school, there were many different classes that they had you take and you just had all sorts of options and things open up.
Honestly, even in law school, I was just open-minded about what I wanted to do. It wasn't until I started signing up for interviews to do summer clerkships. That's when I fell into what I ultimately ended up doing, the civil defense work. That was because the clerkships that I interviewed for came to the law school, and they were what was available. I secured some of those positions, and that's when I decided that I was going to do it. I ultimately ended up being a trial lawyer, but I didn't set out to do that. I don't think.
I think there's a certain amount of serendipity and happenstance, but also, as you said, the opening up of the different avenues, whatever you might've had in mind as part of the law. Sometimes, you can have an idea about something, but in reality, it's not as exciting as you thought it would be or wasn't what you thought it would be.
That's exactly right. I do think part of law school is exposing you to different things that you can eliminate things. A large part of what we need to do to figure out what we want to do in practice is what we don't like and then hopefully that'll whittle its way down to something that you do like. Sometimes you pick something that you don't like and that's what's nice about the law. Luckily, you can transition and shift into another type of practice.
Part of law school is exposing you to different things, so you can eliminate what you don't like. Hopefully, this process will whittle it down to something that you do like.
I think a lot of people do that. I did that. One of the nice things about being a lawyer is that you're not tied down to one specific area. There are lots of opportunities available for lawyers. Circling back to my dad, at the end of his career, he was a recruiter for the FBI, and he would always talk about the different ways you could get into the FBI. Being a lawyer is one of those ways. There are a lot of jobs that you can do that are not practicing law that requires a law degree. It just opens up a lot of doors.
That's why I was wondering if you or your brother, one of you, even became an FBI agent because there are a lot of lawyers who do that. You forge your pathway, but yes, you need to figure out the point of eliminating what is not your bailiwick and finding the things that might even surprisingly be something that would be where your skills are best used.
That's part of the process for sure in law school and afterward. That's why I appreciate more and more having clinics and experiential learning in law school. Sometimes, it can be interesting academically, but what it means in practice is not something that you'd like to do. It's nice to have that mixture of experiences.
That's exactly right, yes.
A civil practice was on the defense side, and you went to trial. How did you enjoy that? What did you like best about that practice?
I practiced at this mid-sized firm here in Little Rock for ten years. There were lots of things I liked about this firm. I liked the people at this firm. I am a big people person. I'm a big team-oriented person, and I felt that we were working together as a team and collaborating in different ways. I learned a lot from the partners at my firm. They trained me how to be a lawyer. I was forever grateful to them for that.
I'm a very task-oriented, organized, and prepared person. That fits into being a trial lawyer as well. Keep up with dates, your calendar, your time, and keeping track of all the cases. That was suited for me, but it is a lot of work and I have so much respect for trial lawyers because it is a very time-consuming practice. It's a very strenuous practice. It's very satisfying, but there are highs and lows. As you well know, you have to be able to be okay when you're up in the mountain and be okay when you're down in the valley.
That practice was very fulfilling for me. I was lucky enough to travel across the state, take depositions, argue motions before different judges across the state, and have some jury trials and a lot of bench trials. I feel like that was part of my journey to where I am today because I have a solid foundation of trial work experience that I can think about with my trial lawyer hat on when I look at a case now.
I feel like that gives me a greater depth of understanding. Sometimes, it's easy to sit up at the appellate court level and say, “They should have done this down there.” or, “They should have said that down there.” It is hard down there in the trenches. You're not only trying to take care of your client and focus on the issue at hand, but you're also trying to protect the record, which is another level of complications. It is a hard job. It was satisfying. I learned a lot. I'm grateful for that time. I feel like it benefited me significantly when I moved to a different role.
That's a good insight and a soft reflection about that because I see that as an Appellate Lawyer, my time as a litigator impacts how I work with trial lawyers because I know in the perfect world, it would be this way, but the world isn't perfect and I understand the other pressures. How about this? How about if we just do this? Understand that when you see the record of how things could have happened that way, you have a better sense of that.
The same thing for the Court of Appeal judges who were trial judges, even if they weren't trial lawyers before. They'll say, “We have some understanding of all the different pressures, what's going on in the courtroom, and what could have impacted the trial judge's decision?” It lends a little different insight when you're reviewing a case and looking at a record. It's interesting to say. That impacts how I see that.
Also, part of the overall journey is how seemingly disparate experiences can come together, and enhance the job you're doing in your current position, which you might not have foreseen as being one of the things that would do to help. Who would think that doing trials helped me when I'm a Court of Appeal Justice?
Teamwork And Basketball
Tell me a little bit about the teamwork part. I'd like to ask how your basketball experience impacted that because you're quite a skilled basketball player in college and also outside the US. Tell me a little bit about that experience and how it impacted your approach. I would say both to litigation, but also maybe even now as part of a panel on the Court of Appeals.
Your colleague who you mentioned earlier, I think you said her name was Amy, she nailed it on the head. I am very grateful for my basketball experience. It has shaped me in every which way I can think of. You can't tell because I'm sitting down, but I am six foot three and a half inches tall. I'm very tall. I was this tall in the ninth grade.
That was a period where I did not want to be the tallest person in school, taller than the teachers, taller than my coaches, taller than all the kids. That was a hard time for me and there was one thing that I could count on that I was good at that gave me confidence and that was basketball. That was a blessing to me back then that I didn't even appreciate at the time.
As I look back now, I know that that was a life-changing opportunity for me to have that sport because it not only gave me confidence, it encouraged me to do things I wouldn't have normally done and it taught me so many life lessons applied to basketball, applied to all sports, and have applied to almost every aspect of my life since that time.
For instance, we've already mentioned teamwork. Generally speaking, every job somebody is going to have in the future is going to require them to work with at least one other person, usually their boss. If you are the boss, you have to work with your employees. That's a team. I love working in a team environment. I did as a basketball player. I did at the private firm I worked at and love that at the Court of Appeals.
You have to play within the rules. You have to show collegiality. You have to keep an open mind and listen to your instructions. You have to learn to communicate. There are just so many. It's hard work, perseverance, all the things that would apply on the basketball court. Those lessons I learned there have carried over and helped me, not only in my work but in my relationships with my family and friends. It's just been a blessing for me.
When I learned to embrace it, being tall as an adult took me some time. I have loved it. It's been a positive attribute instead of something that I was sometimes embarrassed by. I'm grateful that basketball helped bring me to that point. When I ran for this position, we highlighted the fact that I played basketball. I think that was an attention-getter. I think that drew a lot of people into the campaign. People love sports. Interestingly, basketball helped me in that regard too. I'm very grateful. That was a long answer.
No, it's so many different things in the immediate term in terms of building confidence and having a place for you to feel confident, but also to gain these skills that, over time, keep compounding and coming back in different ways. Think of it as discipline, excellence, and collaboration, all different aspects of that.
It's true in other team sports, but I think it's clear in basketball that it is needed for individual excellence and discipline, but also being part of the team and contributing to that, which is a great set of skills to have for life and also in the profession because we can be a little bit competitive, maybe not in a good way, and a little bit combative.
How do we navigate that? I think that also could help you keep a level head and make it through some challenging things that can happen, especially in litigation. From private practice to serving on the Court of Appeals, where you serve now, you served as a Law Clerk. How did that happen? How did you decide to transition to that role?
Transition To A Judicial Role
In private practice, I did do some brief writing when I had cases that would be resolved at the trial court level. They would go up to the court of appeals. I wrote briefs and I argued some cases at the court of appeals and I found that I liked that. I didn't have as much of an opportunity to do that in private practice, but I had enough of an experience to be familiar with it. Judge Larry Vought, who was sitting at the Court of Appeals at the time, reached out and offered me this position.
I just thought long and hard about it. It was a tough decision because I did have such a good experience and that firm and the people at my firm had become part of my family, but I thought it was a good decision for me and I knew it would be a nice place to complete my career. I didn't know at the time that it would transition into a judge position. That's something I'm very grateful for. I was fortunate to work for Judge Vought for sixteen years here. I am sitting in his office.
I was going to ask you if you took his office. That's amazing.
It is. I was just in the office right next door, worked for him for a long time, and learned so much from him. He had been an excellent mentor. Maybe four years before he was going to retire, he came in and he played it close to the vest, he was even-keeled, and he is. He's still with us. He doesn't get emotional either way. He said, “Wendy, I'm going to retire at the end of this term. I think you should think about running for my seat.” I know my jaw hit the floor.
It just fell to the ground. You're like, “What?”
Yes. This is because number 1) As a law clerk, you have always dreamed of being a judge. Number 2) My judge was encouraging me to run for his position.
That's such a huge deal. Right?
Yes. That was such a wonderful moment. He planted that seed. It's interesting because I ran home that night and went to my husband, his name is Paul. I thought, “Paul, my gosh, you're not going to believe what Judge Vought told me today. He said I should run for the court of appeals when he retires. My husband responded, “You should.” I said, “But wait.”
Then all the butts, “But I've never run a campaign.” “I'm not political.” “I wouldn't know what to do to run a campaign, to get out there, and do all that.” But, but, and but. “What if I say something that embarrasses the family?” “What if I do that?” Just all these buts. It was an interesting moment in time when I was proud and excited.
I know I am qualified. I feel like my 10 years in private practice plus my 16 years of working at the Court of Appeals doing this work made me a perfect candidate for that position, but also, these doubts pop in. It took some thought, some prayer, and a lot of conversations with some people to realize, “Yes, you can do this and you can't let your fear interrupt what would be your dream.”
That was a huge lesson for me, and that is one of the things that I have since that time. I tried to share with other women who I know who go through that same process of “Yes, I'm qualified.” “Yes. I think I'd be awesome, but.” When you've never done something, especially on that level, at least my immediate reaction was, “I can't do that.” You can. That's crazy, but you can. You just have to have the courage and you have to be willing to fail. You have to be willing to do all you can to make your dream happen.
I knew that if I had done that and didn't win, I would be okay. It still would have hurt, but at least I would have taken my shot and tried to take my life into my own hands. It ended up being a great experience, but the road to making that decision was not an automatic, “Let's do it.” It took some time to work it through my mind.
It was a good thing. He gave you time to think about it and work through it. Maybe he knew a little bit about you. He said, “I'll give you a little time to let this marinate and consider.” I think you're right, especially in that situation where you're elected to the bench. That's a whole other set of skills. If you have the skills to do the job well. That's one set of considerations. Now, typically, you're not going to be well versed in the other skills of running for office and the campaign and all of that. That can be a little overwhelming.
Yes, but it ended up being a great experience. I'm glad that we did all of that because I'm thrilled and honored to have this position, and I learned a lot of great lessons in that process, too. That's one thing. As I've gotten older, I just realized all these little points in time during your life are all part of your journey, and you can learn from all of these little sections of your life as you go. If you do learn, you take them, and you apply them, they can help you down the road. That was one of the good examples of that.
First, you're doing things that you just didn't think you would or could do, and there's always something about it that enhances your confidence and ability. Once you do a hard thing like that, you're willing to do the next hard thing, which seems like something you know nothing about. We're talking about book publishing. I had no idea about how to publish a book when I did mine, but I figured this was helpful and it could help people, so I'll figure it out.
The more you do things that seem outside your ken, the more you exercise that muscle to do it again. That's helpful. Also, you get a ton of new skills from doing that. Some of the judges I've spoken to who have been elected to their positions said, “On the one hand, of course, it's tiring and the whole campaign process can be its own gauntlet.”
They also talked about how they learned about different things throughout their state by doing that or throughout whatever jurisdiction. They got to meet different people and the circumstances. It gives you this broader sense of who you're serving and who you're impacting on the job, making it more tangible for them when they're deciding the cases. Who are they deciding these cases for, with, and around?
I agree 100%. I learned so much about what is happening in Central Arkansas and all the people working to make our community the best it can be. I met many wonderful people who I'm still friends with because of the campaign. You're right; it is a good way to meet, experience, and spend time with the people you serve, which I think is good for me. I think it's good for the people of Arkansas when they encounter the judges that they have some positive experience with them and try to help to encourage a positive view of the judiciary.
Yes, exactly. I think about that in California. Largely appointed, occasionally elected in different systems and there's always the question of whether you want people to have an experience of the judicial process or the judiciary that reinforces the sense of fairness to the whole process. You have less opportunity to do that in the appointment process but more of a burden on your shoulders, especially when you're a trial judge. Maybe this is the only time that people come in for the jury pool.
This is the only experience with the judicial system they'll have. You want to make sure that they have a good feeling about that and confidence in it. I think going out and being able to hear people's concerns and learn what's going on in the community in different aspects is always helpful in the election process, no matter what it is, and seems to be the best way to do that, to get that input and understanding.
I know that even here, like in the bar associations, when you run for a bar board, I remember seeing many different sections of the bar when I did that. I'd never been to, and I didn't know what this section did, but you realize the bar is different things to many different people. Understanding the role it plays and how important this particular practice or section is to the bar overall is important once you're in that decision-making role. You have a more on-the-ground sense of what we are deciding and how we are impacting.
What's the effect of these decisions? Yes. That's one thing, too. I appreciate it in my new role. I get invited to more things, and I've just tried to say yes to everything because I feel honored to be invited and I like to meet people. That Bar Association, we just had our bar convention in June 2024 and I participated in a Judge's Round Table, which was the first time we had done that.
It was great because it was like speed dating. They had 19 judges at 19 round tables, and then, every 25 minutes, all the lawyers switched tables. They had some topics for us to discuss. I felt like it was such a great opportunity for the practitioners to spend time with the judges. We're all people and we're all just working, especially the judges. We're just trying our very best to make the most appropriate decision and to get it right.
I feel like the practitioner needs to know how committed we are and that we're approachable. If you want to know tips about what you can do to help the appellate process, or if I have questions for you about what we could do to help you. We're there to serve you. It was just a great idea, I thought. I'll be curious to see if we do it again next year, but I thought it was a neat way.
It was well-attended and hopefully, people enjoyed it but those are the types of things that I have enjoyed getting the opportunity to do, as well as some other community service thing, because I just think it's good for people to have a positive viewpoint of the judiciary. I'm volunteering at this program. It's called AR Kids Read, Arkansas Kids Read. It's a program for first to third-graders that they run during the summer to try to keep them reading.
They stay on grade level when they get back to school. There's this big basketball camp-type program tomorrow for all the kids towards the end of the summer. I'm one of the coaches for that. I was just honored. It's one of my favorite programs here. I love helping kids to read. I think it's good that they see good role models in that situation. Plus, kids love me because I'm very tall. They just are very curious about all that. I'm looking forward to that.
That's a good melding of your skills and you're probably a good coach. That works out well. It's a good tip for them. Yes, it's important to have that collegiality or communication between bench and bar in the areas or regions where that happens. It seems like the courts run more smoothly and having that dialogue, as you said, between what the bar is seeing and what the bench is seeing, sometimes there's two different perspectives.
It's good to talk about that and have people realize that maybe that perception wasn't correct or maybe there's some way we can streamline this for everyone. Those little roundtable things are fun. We have some of those in our local bar every once in a while, and it's neat because you get to hear a range of questions and thoughts from different people. Those are neat. I hope you do it again.
I do, too. One of the things I talked about, too, and I thought this was appropriate. It's when you have met the other attorney. If you're a practicing attorney and you have an opponent. If you know your fellow opponent and the cases are important and you have to defend your client and advocate for your client, you can do that very aggressively yet civilly.
I think when the attorneys know each other or when the attorneys know the judges, like have met them in a social setting outside of the courtroom, it's more difficult not to be civil. I think those kinds of meetings where we're getting together, meeting each other, and getting to know each other, even if it's just for 25 minutes at a round table, are better than nothing. It helps encourage civility in the practice of law, which I think is very important.
Yes, It does. People tend to be less gratuitously rude when you have those interactions. I think that's true in specialty areas of practice. People know that there's just no good that comes from assuming the work is acting accordingly. It's nice to give people the benefit of the doubt, and it's easier to do that when you know them or have met them, and they do not have some name on the email or whatever. That's very cool. Tell me about your experience as a judge on the Court of Appeal. How different is that from your law clerk position and what is unexpected about it? There's a lot that you knew, but maybe being in that role, there's a few things that you thought, “I didn't fully appreciate this when I wasn't the decider.”
Yes. There were a lot of things I did expect. I did expect that I would enjoy working with all my coworkers. As a law clerk, I feel like our team of law clerks here, we have twelve judges. Each judge has two or three law clerks, depending on how they've set up their office. I am very close and have a very good working relationship with all the law clerks after sixteen years. I knew that was going to continue and I knew that would be great.
I knew the judges after all these years in a certain way. What's been a very great change for me is to spend time with the judges in a different role. I've gotten to know them differently and they've all been very gracious. It was a different transition for me. Usually, people come onto the court from outside the court. I just was already here. They already knew me. I felt like everyone was very gracious and very welcoming and supportive.
I think that's because they all agreed that I was going to be qualified and do a good job. I knew the cases. I was prepared for the types of cases that we work on because I've done that for sixteen years. There's one thing that I was not expecting to be as time-consuming as it turned out to be and that was because Judge Vought, my predecessor, just did it all on his own. He didn't ask the law clerks to help.
That is the motions practice that we have. You know very well about the motions practice because appellate lawyers are constantly filing motions to get their cases primed and ready to be submitted and decided. I knew those motions were being filed, but I just wasn't on my plate. I just didn't know how all of that shook out.
Our court meets every Tuesday, all twelve of us, for the motions conference. The motions that were filed the week before were all randomly assigned to different judges, and we disposed of those one by one. That exercise and that practice have taken me quite a bit more time to figure out and learn than I expected. It's mainly just because it's new and there is some rhythm to them. Some motions come back regularly, but some motions we get are motions to dismiss the appeal.
Those take a lot of time because that's very important if you're going to dismiss the appeal before they've even had a chance to brief. I spend a lot of time as a new judge making sure I understand why each one of these cases is disposed of the way it is disposed of so that I learn and get the bigger picture. I think that because of that practice, I have appreciated the fullness of what we do.
Instead of just getting a set of briefs when we used to do paper, just plopped them on my desk and said this is your assignment for this week. I have the full understanding of what it took to get that case to that point and what has happened in the meantime, whether the record had to be supplemented, whether there was a motion to dismiss that was denied or just all sorts of things that can come up in motions practice. That has probably been one of the things I didn't expect would take as much time as it did, but it's been a very good learning experience.
There's always that part when you serve as a research attorney or law clerk in a court where you don't see that the judge just handled it, and in practice, people will ask, “How does this work?” I never saw that part of it because we were focused on cases that were on the merits and going to argument. I never did the listing panel. I never did any of that part.
That's certainly one where on the federal courts of appeal, the same thing, clerks are not involved in that. There's always some component that you're not doing. That's a good observation, “You know I never handled this part of it.” “I never knew when I was involved in that.” “There it was with all the record and the brief and off I went.”
You're right. That's unusual because not only were you comfortable with the court, but your fellow judges were comfortable with you or knew you and your abilities. It can take some time just adjusting and onboarding to be part of an appellate panel as its own set of things, but you were able to hit the ground running in that regard. In terms of people being comfortable with you and knowing, “She knows her stuff. It's going to it's going to go well.”
Yes, that part of the transition went very smoothly, and I am very grateful for that. I will say it's been I knew I would love it. It's even better than I imagined it would be. It's fuller than what I imagined it to be. I just feel grateful and honored for the opportunity to serve in this position.
What do you like best about it?
I think the collaboration part of it. I have a wonderful office of lawyers that I work with who I respect a lot, who work very hard, and who are very smart. I love talking about cases with them. I also love that I have the final say in these cases, whereas before, I would make recommendations to Judge Vought. Oftentimes, we agreed, not always, but oftentimes, we did.
I like having the final say in this role. I do think that it's important to collaborate. Hearing other ideas helps me whittle down the key issue and gets me focused on what is the issue at hand. That's super helpful. We serve on three-judge panels when we have our cases. The same goes with those panels. I enjoy hearing what my colleagues have to say and their viewpoints and their perspective.
I learned early, I was very proud of myself for keeping an open mind and listening. Not going into a conference with, “I know this is how it should be.” The whole point is communication, keeping an open mind, listening, and being able to decide with all the information, all the law, and all the facts put together to come to the right answer. I enjoyed that part of the collaboration.
The whole point of collaboration is communication, open-mindedness, and listening.
That's what I enjoy about pilot practice, too, which is being able to brainstorm or bounce ideas off of people. To have that consideration and to think about every avenue. I think that process, like preparing for argument as an appellate lawyer, I want to hear as many pieces of input about what your concern is in this case. What concerns you? What do you think about the law? What kinds of questions and perspectives do you have on the case?
Until that happened, I didn't come to a firm conclusion about how the presentation should go or what should be emphasized either because you have your perspective but the judges may have vastly different perspectives, even amongst themselves. Hearing them, as you look at the case differently, is helpful.
Yes, I agree.
What advice would you give to someone who might be considering the bench or even just advice for finding your path in the law?
Advice For Aspiring Judges And Legal Professionals
We've touched on this a little bit. It doesn't happen anymore where somebody starts a job and then they work their 40 years and then they retire. My father-in-law, my mother-in-law, my dad, and everybody that I grew up with did that. That just doesn't happen anymore. I think that with these different positions that people get, you have to dig in and you have to work hard and you have to learn as much as you can learn from these positions.
You need to find mentors in those positions to help you along your way and to find your way. If you do that, I think you will learn important lessons and skills from each of those jobs. In the process, you have to also network. I think you should make yourself available for your bar associations and attend your county bar associations at your local bar.
Meet the people that are in the bar with you. Socialize and learn from them and expand your circles to civic organizations or community service organizations. I feel like people who volunteer are personally satisfied in ways they can't explain when they give back to the community. You not only help others, but you meet people. You learn more about what's going on in your community.
You end up building these big circles of friends and groups that ultimately, if you decide to run for office, you will be able to call upon for support. They'll love you because you've worked hard in your job and every job you've had. You've committed yourself to your community, and you've participated in it all along the way. Those two things are what I would recommend doing if you wanted to run for a judicial position, which all of our judicial positions are elected. We do have some appointments if someone doesn't complete a term, but generally speaking, we have judicial elections.
That's common with people who do end up, whether it's appointing appointment or election to the bench, because there's a history, culture, and that person of service, whether in the bar or the community or both. That's an important point because I think a lot of lawyers think about that just in the bar, and they may not think more broadly in terms of the community, whether it's nonprofit boards or other forms of volunteering.
Lawyers can be useful and helpful and their critical thinking skills can be quite helpful to different nonprofit boards. It's also neat to meet people who are in many different professions and roles in that capacity instead of just other lawyers. You can expand outside that to other members of the community, which is neat. Some communities have planned for leadership cohorts and things like that, regional or local, that are neat.
Rapid Fire Questions
You can meet people, but most of them aren't lawyers. That's fun and get some behind-the-scenes understanding of some of the issues that are going on in your community and how you can help serve in those. Yes, those are great tips. Especially the bar, lawyer, and community service, which could include pro bono work if you're interested in that or working with nonprofits in other ways. Perfect. Those are some good ones. Normally, I end with some somewhat rapid-fire questions. I'm going to start with this because you mentioned earlier the top tips for brief writing and then the top tips for oral argument.
For brief writing, I have a couple. One is in the past few years, our court has gone from paper filing to all electronic records. In the old rule, people would have to draft an abstract, put together an addendum, attach all that to their paper brief, and then stick their argument in there and they would file that. The electronic record is now prepared by the court reporter who does the transcripts and then the circuit clerk who puts the pleadings together.
All of that is emailed along with your brief and submitted for filing. We don't have an abstract anymore. I always appreciated the abstract because it was a good summary of what happened according to the lawyers and was relevant to the case. That gave me a good idea about what happened at trial, what the court's rulings were orally, and all of just what happened.
We don't get those anymore. Now, we have to rely on the parties to prepare a statement of the case. That now is super important because the parties are supposed to put forth all of the facts that are relevant to this case on this procedurally and on the substantive issues. Sometimes, people don't do that as fully as they should, and they don't tell their story in the statement of the case.
Essentially, I feel like the judges and the lawyers working for the judges are going into the record all the time to figure out what happened. That's very time-consuming. Each week, we get a new set of cases. There's only so much time we can spend on each case. When the parties do a great job drafting their statement of the case, pinpointing where in the record this particular fact is and why this is important, I find that very helpful.
In conjunction with that, I think it's very helpful when parties put together briefs with the argument sections that are the strong points first and concise. For the same reason, when you put ten points on appeal in your brief, the good ones get diluted with the bad ones. You want us to focus on the strongest points that you have most concisely. That's hard. That takes a good, skilled lawyer to do that. I understand that. I know it when I see it.
It takes a truly skilled lawyer to focus on their strongest points most concisely.
You have to distill it down to which one is the strongest one and maybe 3 or 4, but not 10.
It's unfortunate because we will read all of it. We will go through all of it. You are taking time away from your big points when you do that. Lastly, I have found that I love it when lawyers put in their argument sections some pictures, charts, family trees, maps or diagrams, or aerial shots of a boundary dispute. I sometimes think a picture is worth a thousand words in a legal brief.
Sometimes, a picture is worth a thousand words in a legal brief.
I had a case one time that was an estate case and the family tree in this case was widespread and it took me hours just to figure out who was who and who went with who. I thought that that would have been helpful if somebody had just put that in a family tree and plopped it right in the middle of that brief. I would have referred to it a million times.
I ended up doing it for myself, but there are visually effective and just certain things that I think are worthy of putting in briefs. We do a lot of nursing home litigation appeals and there are sections of the arbitration clause that we see over and over and people will start snapshotting that. It's a lot more effective to just look at the box to see who signed it and what the check is instead of saying, “The resident put a checkmark next to the box over here between this category and this.” It just gets lost.
Just the snapshot of that form or that document.
Yes, very effective. My other tip is just to think outside the box about what visual insert you can make and help the reader. We greatly appreciate that, too.
I've done some timeline things in there too, like inserted timelines, but done them in a way that's easier to more graphic, it's easier to understand because if you're going through the scenario, “Then this happened and this happened.” A lot harder than just seeing, “That's what happened.” Sometimes, things just smack you in the forehead a little bit more when you see them that way, “Wait, something doesn't seem right about that timeline.”
That's right. As far as oral argument, I think that along the same lines as the brief writing, we get the briefs in advance. We've read the briefs, researched, and talked about the case. In law school, they taught us to go in and restate the facts, but honestly, I think the most effective thing to do is to just maybe introduce yourself, give just a sentence or two about what the case is about, and then just hammer in on what you think the key issue is on appeal.
We only get oral arguments. The parties request them, and they are granted if it's a unique issue or a new issue. Usually, those are good interesting cases, and the court loves to have a dialogue with the attorneys. Instead of just listening to somebody recite the facts, we know what happened. We're focused on, “Is this a final order?” or “Is this preserved?” or “Is this legal?”
Are you applying the wrong statute or something? If you're the appellant and you are confident that you've got one or two issues that are just interesting and perhaps can persuade the court to reverse the case, hammer in on those immediately. On the flip side, if you've got some weaknesses in your case, I would go ahead and talk about that too.
If there's a case the other side is relying on, maybe distinguish that case. Those are the types of questions the judges are going to ask you about or want to ask you about. If you just dive into that, you're likely going to start a dialogue with the judges, which is ultimately much more productive and effective for everybody than just listening to or recitation of the case.
It's your last opportunity or the only opportunity to have a direct conversation with the court. You want to be able to answer the most crucial questions, especially when you're deciding on a new area of the law. That makes a lot of sense. Do you have any practice in your court of focus letters or alerting counsel in advance? “Please address this question or this particular point.” Is that something that you do or not?
I don't think so.
It is because sometimes that can help, too. “Talk about this because we're curious about that particular.”
I'm going to make a note of that. That's not a bad idea.
Maybe we should have started to do that a week or so in advance. There are some common areas that the panel would say, “We've all agreed we want to hear about this particular point.”
They may have done that in the past. I've only had a handful of oral arguments since I've been on the court. It's just been a year and a half. That may be something that has happened in the past. It sounds like a very good idea.
It doesn't always happen and it may not always be appropriate, but sometimes it is and it's helpful if there are a lot of different nuances to an issue for the lawyer to know, “I should be sure to cover that or be prepared to think of all those different things.”
Thanks, MC. I'm going to keep that in mind.
Keep it in mind. It's interesting. It's something that's developing out here, even on the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. I've had somewhere, “There are questions, be prepared to talk about these issues.” Some of the State Courts of Appeal have started that. Which talent would you most like to have but don't?
I would like to be a 4.0 pickleball player. My husband and I have taken up pickleball. We love it. We want to be much better than we are. If I woke up tomorrow morning and was a 4.0 pickleball player, I would be a happy gal.
That would be awesome. Got it. It's quite popular out here, too, in California. It's just picked up steam. Who are your favorite writers? It doesn't have to be legal. It could be non-legal fiction.
I would have to say my favorite writers are my law clerks.
That is a very good response.
I adore them. They are brilliant women. They're fabulous lawyers. They're excellent writers. They challenge me and support me. You've served as a law clerk and you know how important that role is. Judges are only as good as their law clerks. I am very grateful for them and appreciative of their hard work. I am grateful for their writing skills.
That's a great answer. Very timely and appropriate answer given the work. Who is your hero in real life?
I would have to say I have two heroes. I've talked about one. My dad is one of my heroes. He did teach me early on how to set a goal and work hard to achieve that goal. He essentially taught me I could do anything I wanted to do, which is an important lesson for women to hear from anybody.
It is, right, but I think it is important for your father to have that attitude and approach, “Anything you want to do.
“Is out there for you,” as long as you work hard. My other hero is my mom because she taught me to embrace what made me different instead of fighting against it. I did fight against it for a while, but she was always telling me, “Wendy, God is giving you this body and this stature for a reason. Once you’ve embraced it instead of fighting it, it is going to be a long road for you.
Once I did, she was right. I am very grateful that it finally clicked for me. I would pass that along to as many people as I could because it could be all sorts of different things that make you different. It is a hard road when you fight that, but when you’ve embraced it and used it to your advantage, it can become a blessing. I am very grateful for that lesson from her.
It's a hard road when you fight what makes you different, but when you embrace it and use it to your advantage, it can become a blessing.
That is a great thought. Trying to go uphill or fighting against something. It's not going to change.
You're not going to get any shorter.
Exactly. Your response to it, just changing that changes everything. I think that's an important thing to recognize in many different ways. I'd like your observation. She told me this, which was important and helpful, but it took me a while to internalize that. Someone can tell you something, but you still need to internalize that and understand what she's talking about and why that's important. Then you can move forward. What in life do you feel most grateful for?
No question, my friends and family. I have always known I've been blessed to have a very supportive family and a great set of friends. In 2021 and 2022, when I was running for office, the support was overwhelming and very humbling. I have said many times that everyone should run for office to see how wonderful, supportive, and helpful their friends are. That wasn't one of the silver linings in running for office just to have all of that support being thrown at you and you see it every day. You know your friends are there for you, but when you have something like that come up, it is heartwarming and I'm very grateful for my people. I feel very blessed.
It's great to be able to see that and also have what people are willing to do even without your asking.
Yes, exactly right, yes.
Given the choice of anyone in the world could be with us, not with us, and it could be more than one person, who would you invite to a dinner party?
Paul and I love to have people over for dinner. He loves to grill and we like to entertain. I love this question. Right now, I would like to invite two people. I would invite Caitlin Clark and George R. R. Martin. It's an odd combination. I know, but I have so many positive feelings about what Caitlin Clark has done to women's basketball and women's sports in general.
She has just lifted the sport to levels it's never seen. I couldn't be more excited for her and proud of her and what she's done. My family, we're just big Game of Thrones fans. We're watching House of Dragons. I find George R. R. Martin to be wickedly smart and talented. I can't even imagine how all of these ideas fit into his head. He's just very talented, and it would be a very nice dinner for the four of us. I'm sure my kids would sneak in as well.
Yes, I would think so, especially with those guests. Yes. That's cool. I love that combination. I do. It's neat. It would be cool to figure out where all those lights of imagination come from in his creation of worlds. Caitlin Clark has just made such a huge difference in women's sports. She seems even-keeled about everything.
The enormous amount of pressure on her. Most people would break, but she just cruises and continues excelling despite that pressure. She's got the weight of women's basketball for sure, but I think a lot of women's sports are on her shoulders, and she carries them very well.
There's a lot of grace in how she carries it. That's remarkable. Last question. What is your motto if you have one?
I have two mottos. One is a professional motto, “Everything you've ever wanted is on the other side of fear.” That resonates with me. It resonates with many people who are afraid to chase their dreams. I would just encourage people to go for it. You just can't win big unless you risk big. Failure is okay. People learn from failure, and it's not the end goal, obviously, but it's a step along the way.
I think that if you desire something and want to do something like write a book, you have to put aside your fears of the unknown and just go for it and look at what happened. You produce this beautiful project and have this wonderful memento to share with your mom and millions of others. That would be the professional one.
My personal motto is just to be kind. I feel like just being kind to people goes a long way. Just saying a nice greeting. Just greeting people and welcoming people and just opening the door for people or just the littlest gestures go a long way and can make a difference in somebody's day. I've tried to teach my kids to be kind to everyone they encounter because it just makes the day go better. It just makes people feel better. It's just a nice way to be. That would be my personal motto.
That's a great lesson, and being kind to everyone doesn't matter where you encounter them or who they might be. It does end up making your days that much better, too. It boomerangs back to you and you never know if someone's having a hard day and maybe it makes a big difference to them.
It makes it might turn it around for them. That's right.
Closing
Yes, it might turn their day around. It's a nice thing to do. It's very kind of you to agree to join the show and to participate in this history of women in the profession and leadership. I appreciate your joining and had some interesting insights. Thank you very much.
Thank you, MC. It's been so much fun. I admire all the things that you're doing and I'm honored to be a part of this. Thank you.
Thank you, Judge Wood.